Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[pablolie]

I promised to not participate again but... what is happening here? the discussion has turned bizarre into a silly discussion about engineering and software skills? stop it.
it is clear to build any software architecture you need to understand the environment and that is called engineering by default. your software works on an abstracted model. you work with domain experts.
stop the platitudes.

 

[Robin L]

I promised to not participate again but... what is happening here? the discussion has turned bizarre into a silly discussion about engineering and software skills? stop it.
it is clear to build any software architecture you need to understand the environment and that is called engineering by default. your software works on an abstracted model. you work with domain experts.
stop the platitudes.

A: You should stick around.
B: You can expect food fights.

 

[pablolie]

Depends on their background. But I take the point.

Rick “lots of trained engineers in the software biz” Denney

any serious software project recruits domain skills, coding skills, project management skills, stakeholder approval...

I don't know where you guys work where success exclusively relies on a coding expert that magically. combines the entire horizontal and vertical expertise. that indeed is a recipe for certain failure.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Can't spend on what is not available. Why do you think I was about to setup a 5 mile wireless link until recently.

I think this 9 mpbs average is one of the situations where a 6 foot tall person drowned in a lake with an average depth of 6 inches. All the 100, 300, 500 and 1000 mpbs connections skew the average so much it leaves a far larger number of areas with painfully slow internet than one might at first think. There are fewer of them by far, but still a not insignificant portion of areas with such poor connections. Many areas with slow service are also glitchy. That is how my old DSL service was. Even when it was providing generally 3 mpbs, any stream even one of only 700 kbps would regularly glitch out and have to start over.

Now I don't believe anyone is looking to do any research to lower bit rates further, but there are still many places where the lower bitrates are somewhat necessary. So they aren't yet in a position to just switch to lossless even for CD audio.

Median Global internet speeds are 59 Mbs down 29 up. US is closer to 140 down, 40up. So even though I am well below median connection in the US, audio is in no way impacted (except when It gets windy or rains, then my speed drops significantly and it take a hi-res stream a few seconds to start.

 

[pablolie]

even +if+ you had just an early 2000s 6 Mbit/s download link... accurate downloads or even live streams at 16/44 are not an issue at all.

nobody would waste a second inventing a compression algorithm for traditional stereo audio now unless (a) it is for DRM reasons and (b) it is for multichannel audio for video.

nobody gives a crap about 700kbps these days anywhere in the network (otherwise none of us could work remote).

multichannel audio, gaming and 8k vid were in no way prt of the original MP3 discussion in here.

I can just tell you service provider infrastructures can handle it (caching was already mentioned by someone else) but it's more about pricing tiers than network capacity. unless of course you live in an under-served area or you kept your V.32 modem.

 

[Galliardist]

There is far more value system than engineering in your post. The objectives of science-minded audio enthusiasts don't have to coincide with the list you presented. If I want to obtain the flattest possible response from a given cartridge, I will deploy science and engineering to adjust the frequency response and to measure how well the adjustment worked. Furthermore, that science and engineering is actually more accessible to people who mess with software enough at work not to want to do it so much at home, but that's a whole other topic. "Messing with software" has also attracted a religious following every bit as dogmatic as they claim others to be, particularly about the necessity for continuous innovation (I did not say meaningful improvement).

One of my hobbies (see Newman's definition above) is restoring a 49-year-old GMC motor home. It is, in many dimensions, objectively better as a motor home than current offerings, but in other dimensions would be laughable in the current market and against current technologies. Yet it is a ripe topic for deep science and engineering, and very much of both get applied by those similarly engaged.

Do not burden science and engineering with the religious worship of newness.

Rick "people enjoyed and were moved by music playback 50 years ago--who knew?" Denney

Actually, I'm not sure I am convinced by the idea of "like minded audio enthusiasts" as a test for advice to ordinary people wanting the best result from buying a playback system, once. At some point the audio system becomes the hobby. I think I'm in that trap right now just by posting here. I don't remember anything about messing with software or anything like that. The point of a good audio system is to listen to music. Do it once, do it well.

As for newness, the basic concept of well measuring equipment has been around since the 1940s, and the idea of listening to anechoically flat speakers has been around long enough for major speaker companies to have been anechoically testing since before 1980 when I first started taking notice of high fidelity. Surround audio has been around for that same 50 years now and there was evidence then that people preferred it, even if it did fail back then.

But, still, I'll let you stop me. I'm taking my own advice, going back to just listening to music, no more wasting my time learning and having fun here. Bye.

 

[Frgirard]

any serious software project recruits domain skills, coding skills, project management skills, stakeholder approval...

I don't know where you guys work where success exclusively relies on a coding expert that magically. combines the entire horizontal and vertical expertise. that indeed is a recipe for certain failure.

I did that during 25 years as IT Project manager in the Industrial refrigeration.
In the company where i worked The R&D departement do that : engineering, development and also customer quotes
I worked with subcontractors where the developer was also a salesperson or trainer.
but with Indian developer factories, there is a strong segregation of tasks.

it's all about context and no generalizations possible.

 

[pablolie]

... the best of all worlds?

 

[Chrispy]

"why do records sound so much better than..." pops up in my feed? So annoying.

 

[Mart68]

any serious software project recruits domain skills, coding skills, project management skills, stakeholder approval...

I don't know where you guys work where success exclusively relies on a coding expert that magically. combines the entire horizontal and vertical expertise. that indeed is a recipe for certain failure.

I agree it's a recipe for certain failure but I have seen it happen many times in large companies.

Those coding do not want the input of the end users as that makes their job harder. The management overseeing the project have no direct experience of either the coding process or the end application and so are effectively useless in that role.

 

[antcollinet]

I agree it's a recipe for certain failure but I have seen it happen many times in large companies.

Those coding do not want the input of the end users as that makes their job harder. The management overseeing the project have no direct experience of either the coding process or the end application and so are effectively useless in that role.

A fundamental management failure.

It is not like well designed processes for product development haven't been in place for decades or anything (eg well implemented agile development with strong/competent CPO)

 

[Mart68]

A fundamental management failure.

It is not like well designed processes for product development haven't been in place for decades or anything (eg well implemented agile development with strong/competent CPO)

Indeed I was trained in it many years ago (early 1990s) although my only practical experience is as an end user. I've only ever worked at one company where they insisted it was done properly, much to the chagrin of the people doing it.

The costs of getting it wrong are enormous but since they are mostly hidden costs (lost productivity) it doesn't register with the accountants.

 

[rdenney]

"why do records sound so much better than..." pops up in my feed? So annoying.

It was acknowledged about 80 pages ago that the title was provocatively false.

That said, we can choose what we allow to provoke us. The conversation refuted and then outgrew the title almost immediately.

Rick “finds it easier to navigate life being a little less easy to provoke” Denney

 

[rdenney]

I agree it's a recipe for certain failure but I have seen it happen many times in large companies.

Those coding do not want the input of the end users as that makes their job harder. The management overseeing the project have no direct experience of either the coding process or the end application and so are effectively useless in that role.

That’s what systems engineering is for, going all the way back to Bill Hewlett and the HP Way.

Rick “RIP” Denney

 

[Bob from Florida]

It was acknowledged about 80 pages ago that the title was provocatively false.

That said, we can choose what we allow to provoke us. The conversation refuted and then outgrew the title almost immediately.

Rick “finds it easier to navigate life being a little less easy to provoke” Denney

Where is the OP? Probably laughing "insert pronoun of choice here" ass off at 80+ pages of responses!

 

[Rock Rabbit]

Well looking for another thread I ended here, maybe a simple answer is tonality in vinyl. From America ("to each his own" track) a comparison between vinyl first take (AT VM-540 SL-1200) and hd tracks

Digital provide extra 3-4 dB below 100 Hz, analog was almost 10 dB high at 10 kHz cymbals details are impressive. Same peak level (normalized) and same loudness range (untouched) due to same analog master source, digital sounds dull at best

 

[Robin L]

Well looking for another thread I ended here, maybe a simple answer is tonality in vinyl. From America ("to each his own" track) a comparison between vinyl first take (AT VM-540 SL-1200) and hd tracksView attachment 190975
Digital provide extra 3-4 dB below 100 Hz, analog was almost 10 dB high at 10 kHz cymbals details are impressive. Same peak level (normalized) and same loudness range (untouched) due to same analog master source, digital sounds dull at best

But if you used a different cartridge the frequency response would be different. The difference in timbre might be a factor in this comparison, but remember that the master for LPs is going to be digital to start with for new releases in 2022. Yes, the source for historical recordings might be analog, but if it's a 2022 LP the intermaster [post-production work for pre-mastering] is going to be digital with a tiny number of exceptions. And I can assure you, from many years of collecting and listening to LPs, that frequency response of the same album in various remasters is all over the place during analog's "golden era".

I can see why someone who has an audio system built around a turntable how a bright sounding cartridge [Audio Technica is famous for them] would make digital reproduction seem "dull" in the higher frequencies.

 

[Rock Rabbit]

But if you used a different cartridge the frequency response would be different. The difference in timbre might be a factor in this comparison, but remember that the master for LPs is going to be digital to start with for new releases in 2022. Yes, the source for historical recordings might be analog, but if it's a 2022 LP the intermaster [post-production work for pre-mastering] is going to be digital with a tiny number of exceptions. And I can assure you, from many years of collecting and listening to LPs, that frequency response of the same album in various remasters is all over the place during analog's "golden era".

I can see why someone who has an audio system built around a turntable how a bright sounding cartridge [Audio Technica is famous for them] would make digital reproduction seem "dull" in the higher frequencies.

Totally agree on vinyl edition sound variation but different takes (same vinyl) with Ortofon Bronze or Black are almost identical so the frequency response is not distorted by the AT capsule. What I see on recent "digital mastering" vs vinyl is that the sound is heavily compressed even for vinyl edition, so to avoid groove overmodulation the bass dynamic range is very limited. As I see the digital world has obviously the best capabilities...but the worst audio technical abuse of: compression for lowest dynamic range and highest possible loudness, auto tuning at unnatural or robotic level, ...and many other "corrections" like tasteless plugin edition abuse to "correct" any instrument...
Transfer of old masters to digital domain could be done in a transparent way but seems nobody cares and the process morph in some "digital restoration" that never ends well

 

[Robin L]

Totally agree on vinyl edition sound variation but different takes (same vinyl) with Ortofon Bronze or Black are almost identical so the frequency response is not distorted by the AT capsule. What I see on recent "digital mastering" vs vinyl is that the sound is heavily compressed even for vinyl edition, so to avoid groove overmodulation the bass dynamic range is very limited. As I see the digital world has obviously the best capabilities...but the worst audio technical abuse of: compression for lowest dynamic range and highest possible loudness, auto tuning at unnatural or robotic level, ...and many other "corrections" like tasteless plugin edition abuse to "correct" any instrument...
Transfer of old masters to digital domain could be done in a transparent way but seems nobody cares and the process morph in some "digital restoration" that never ends well

If a Shure 97xe was used, the results would be the opposite, with the bass slightly jacked up and the treble noticeably rolled off.
Stuff like autotuning is a production decision, so go complain to the musicians and producers. Remember that the majority of people prefer compression due to environmental factors like the background noise levels of cars or of a busy open office. If an artist is big and currently popular, blame it on their popularity. Remember it sounds that way because the people who made the recording wanted it to sound that way.

I find digital remasters of classic analog material don't sound different enough to bother me. Usually when I hear problems, they were on the source recording. On the other hand, I found re-issues of LPs having all sorts or audible problems due to faulty pressings, which were quite common when LPs were the most common means of distributing music.

 

[pablolie]

I find digital remasters of classic analog material don't sound different enough to bother me. Usually when I hear problems, they were on the source recording. On the other hand, I found re-issues of LPs having all sorts or audible problems due to faulty pressings, which were quite common when LPs were the most common means of distributing music.

I have a few that are horrid. I much prefer the originals with some analog tape hiss (in good classical recordings it was seldom too bad).

IMO, every "re-mastering" of an original recording on a reference tape comes with compromises, since it requires frequency manipulations that, as elaborate as they may be, can never just target *one* particular instrument or staging element. Any frequency manipulation you do on a single master recording will impact something else.

There is one recording where the (overpriced) 20/44 "re-master" eliminates the hiss at the cost of completely murking the stage of what was an amazing presentation of a classical orchestra on a fantastic stage. Lesson learned - I tend to stick with the originals.