Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[pads]

I'm 63. I don't have golden ears, I've been collecting and playing music primarily through vinyl since the mid 70s and I still enjoy the format. Like others I collect some oddball releases that will never see the light of day on any other format and that's just fine by me. The argument of what is better is mote as my hearing isn't what it used got be, I just love spending an evening dragging out old and new releases, playing both tables (Gyrodec & Thorens 124) playing DJ to my much better, patient half and the dogs while enjoying a good meal and a bottle of wine. Much better for the brain than staring blankly into the TV....

 

[JJB70]

This thread could be summarised by just saying there are many reasons people like vinyl, if you like it then good for you and enjoy what you like but if considered objectively digital formats are superior and much lower effort.

 

[j_j]

I'm 63. I don't have golden ears, I've been collecting and playing music primarily through vinyl since the mid 70s and I still enjoy the format. Like others I collect some oddball releases that will never see the light of day on any other format and that's just fine by me. The argument of what is better is mote as my hearing isn't what it used got be, I just love spending an evening dragging out old and new releases, playing both tables (Gyrodec & Thorens 124) playing DJ to my much better, patient half and the dogs while enjoying a good meal and a bottle of wine. Much better for the brain than staring blankly into the TV....

Almost like it's all about the music.

I understand entirely!

 

[Newman]

Strangely enough, the vastly greater ease and scope of access to music on digital is all about the music too…

 

[j_j]

Strangely enough, the vastly greater ease and scope of access to music on digital is all about the music too…

Indeed, now if it wasn't all encoded for delivery to 64 kb/s or something . . . (does not mention certain popular delivery formats)

 

[Newman]

...but "it's all about the music", right?

 

[Robin L]

...but "it's all about the music", right?

If it really was about the music, then pitch, wow and flutter would be more important than other factors like THD, because those sorts of temporal distortions alter the musical effect by 'bending' the notes.

I suspect a lot of "audiophiles" have a tin ear.

 

[egellings]

Some audio crazies are into equipment and music is but a test signal for them, while with others, the equipment there solely to serve the music. Out of sight, out of mind. If you like the equipment, then enjoy the equipment. If you like the music, then enjoy the music. I enjoy both.

 

[j_j]

If it really was about the music, then pitch, wow and flutter would be more important than other factors like THD, because those sorts of temporal distortions alter the musical effect by 'bending' the notes.

I suspect a lot of "audiophiles" have a tin ear.

On the other hand, you are ignoring the ability of the human brain to "hear through" various kinds of distortions. I have had audiophiles as test subjects. Sometimes they are good, sometimes not. It seems to be more related to training and willingness to train and learn how to do a test, and how to listen for artifacts.

You might as well say the same of musicians, you know, but musicians can hear right on through some of the worst recordings in the world, because they understand what the performer is doing.

Don't generalize.

(And, remember, I'm the most annoying objectivist on this block.)

 

[Cote Dazur]

it is like many of you people have never heard a good vinyl system.

The more time I spend on ASR, the more I come to the same conclusion. Their is perception that digital is “perfect” when all digital has is the potential to be better. In reality, looking at how most have their system set up, they have a much bigger issue there than any inferences in medium. In addition, how a particular music is produced and mastered will have greater impact on how it sound that the medium per say. Also when streaming is the source, you just opened an other can of worms once you realize what they do to the content.
Listening to music on records on a decent TT set up is a very rewarding experience, it was then as it is now and will be tomorrow as the music remain the same.

 

[mightycicadalord]

The more time I spend on ASR, the more I come to the same conclusion. Their is perception that digital is “perfect” when all digital has is the potential to be better. In reality, looking at how most have their system set up, they have a much bigger issue there than any inferences in medium. In addition, how a particular music is produced and mastered will have greater impact on how it sound that the medium per say. Also when streaming is the source, you just opened an other can of worms once you realize what they do to the content.
Listening to music on records on a decent TT set up is a very rewarding experience, it was then as it is now and will be tomorrow as the music remain the same.

I've probably heard over 20 vinyl setups and none were as good as the digital versions of the files. I feel this is a scapegoat for criticisms, you can just toss that out for basically anything here. I think the reality is vinyl has limitations and people can hear those limitations and it bothers them.

Streaming services processing of audio files is pretty well known for each service, aside from lossy file compression, the only other thing they do is replaygain which you can turn off anyways, that doesn't affect the sound of the content in any way. Sounds more like old man yelling at clouds than legit criticism.

I still very much think it's weird that people care this much about the medium the music is on lol. Talk about losing the plot.

 

[Digby]

I still very much think it's weird that people care this much about the medium the music is on lol. Talk about losing the plot.

Hmm, look at watches, artwork, insert thing here. It is often about more than keeping time, looking attractive, e.t.c.

 

[threni]

Has anyone done a really good job of taking a digitally recorded and mixed album, and then screwing it up in software to add all the imperfections a record bestows upon a recording and then presenting it to someone who prefers vinyl to digital in a blind test vs the original. Not that they won't be able to tell the "record" from the CD as it'll have fake surface noise etc but just so they can't see it is in fact a flac file they're listening to in both cases.

What about the same experiment but with just surface noise added but no other changes to the audio.

I think it's possible that most will prefer the "authentic" vinyl to the "only surface noise" one, but either will be better than the original one.

 

[Digby]

Has anyone done a really good job of taking a digitally recorded and mixed album, and then screwing it up in software

It usually works the other way around, they take something recorded on an analogue format, record it to digital, screw it up in software and then called it 'remastered'.

 

[captainbeefheart]

How many of these threads are there here?!?!!?!?

My mother bless her heart is still alive and was always a music lover, she grew up too poor to afford anything but the cheapest radios but it doesn't effect how she enjoys the music. Fast forward to today and I show her something like Qobuz and she is blown away by it, I have nice LP setups also but she always asks for the streaming service over the records, I don't know how many times I have heard her say "it sounds like I am at Symphony hall" or "the singer sounds like he is right here in the room". Vinyl does not impress her one bit, she'd have listened to 3 songs by the time the record is cleaned and on the platter.

I can hear it now "we only had records to listen to but we enjoyed them, this computer stuff you have now is amazing". Yes she has very high quality custom hearing aids, I paid $10,000 on them for her and that's with a discount because the Doctor is music lover like me and I met him through selling a Thorens TT to him. I'd wager with her hearing aids she has better hearing than I do, well at least better bandwidth, I'm a musician with perfect pitch.

As I said I have both LP and digital playback systems and love both, because of sheer ease and the quality I stream hi-res for the majority of my listening and when it's a special kinda moment where me and the guys want to engross ourselves in an entire album that we grew up with I fire up the TT and let em spin. Although hi-res digital is academically more precise you can get a very enjoyable LP playback system but it's without a question much more expensive. Luckily I already have lots of LP's because I can't imagine a young person starting out getting into vinyl and needing to spend I'd say at least $1,000 to get a decent TT and preamp, add on top of that $30 per new record and your up near $2,000 at least to start out. I know you can get used records and I do that all the time but it's more time consuming to go pick through the crates. Spending $1,000 only gets you around 30 albums, getting a decent collection of say a few hundred albums costs money that most working families cannot afford in today's 3 mile island economy. Now you can get a really good DAC for like $150, Monthly streaming service for $10 a month for a huge assortment of music to listen to. So for less than $200 you already have an enormous amount of high quality material to enjoy while you slowly build your vinyl collection. I personally like to have my music tangible, so collecting records has always been the fun part of LP's, sort of like collecting baseball cards. I think many of us do it this way, we have digital because it's cheap and amazing to have a huge amount of music to enjoy while also collecting tangible records as a way to hold near and dear to me. Digital is also fantastic because there are many artists and albums I don't necessarily want to purchase but i like a few tracks. If I can get the album used for $2 to add to my collection of course I'll grab it but I"m not going to spend $30 for 1 song I like on an album.

Stop arguing and enjoy both for the benefits each provides. Yes vinyl does provide benefits, some people prefer distortion and may just prefer records in general. For me it's just a way of collecting something I really love and the nostalgia of the process of listening to and owning a nice record collection.

 

[j_j]

Maybe time for another round of "your preference is nothing but YOUR preference"?

 

[Holmz]

I've probably heard over 20 vinyl setups and none were as good as the digital versions of the files. I feel this is a scapegoat for criticisms, you can just toss that out for basically anything here. I think the reality is vinyl has limitations and people can hear those limitations and it bothers them.

Streaming services processing of audio files is pretty well known for each service, aside from lossy file compression, the only other thing they do is replaygain which you can turn off anyways, that doesn't affect the sound of the content in any way. Sounds more like old man yelling at clouds than legit criticism.

I still very much think it's weird that people care this much about the medium the music is on lol. Talk about losing the plot.

Part1:

Or they are really just more lazy, and use it as an excuse?
Or they want to signal that they are hip using records, or not to be fooled by using digital?

In reality it was not a bunch of benevolent people on the board of Sony etc that were discussing the beauty of sound, it was that media can be transmitted without lifting a finger. And it can be digitally encrypted.

Other than the voyager spacecraft, not space craft have LPs.
And few are using analogue transmission.
Also most all are using digital.
So state of the art in communication systems is digital.

With the LP one has a physical thing that does not need to be sent, and encrypted.
It is only sent from the shelf to the platter.


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Part2:

Go onto a-gon. They are threads where they bash Amir for not listening, and go on and on about how every DAC has its own unique sound.
WFT? How can “perfect” digital representation result in 1000 flavours of DACS?

Then there are the snake oil purveyors who time and again come up with things like, “You need to spend and equal amount on the digital side.”
And on and on and on about electrical noise being such an effect to digital systems, and then power cords, and conditioners “up the wazoo” by snake oil purveyors and they clergy of the faithful.


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Part3:

The Mrs had me go through a bunch of electronics yesterday to sell, donate, trash.
CD and DVD players with broken transports etc.
VHS players that do not work, etc.

With streaming, I guess people in Russia are not listening to services.
Their Vinyl and CDs should be working.

sent.

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The cartridge is wildly different than a DAC; in that it is a transducer.
Most of the electronics in the middle is decent, and the other transducer (the speaker) is the other source for difficult work to be happening.

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And… people seem emotionally wedded to the lunchbox, more that the lunch inside of it.

 

[j_j]

Well, if we want to talk about "perfect" let's start by remembering that we've thrown away 99.95% (if not more) of the information in a soundfield by reducing it to two channels.

That is, if the original was even made IN a sound field.

I've had a few interesting experiences with various DAC's, including at least a few that have absolute disasters handling excessive intersample overs.

Once again I will say that vinyl has some very characteristic distortions, one set that enhances the sensation of complex sound stage, and another that creates a perceptual exaggeration to the dynamic range.

HOWEVER one can easily capture vinyl sound on digital media (by recording it, yes, that simple), but not vice versa. Which system holds more information is not in dispute, it's the digital system.

Yes, Robin, it is possible to mimic analog distortions in digital media. Nobody seems to want that, though. It seems like people would rather shout about "intersample time resolution" as though it's a problem (and it's not), how digital media is harsh (without noting the "make it too (*&( loud" that digital media can transmit, and so, thanks to demands of producers and A&R people, wind up transmitting, signals you could never EVER put on an LP), and various imaginary properties of "analog" (meaning the continuous time, continuous level analog) as opposed to digital (the discrete time, discrete level analog of the original signal).

No,analog does not have infinite bandwidth, nor does it have infinite resolution, and it surely has more nonlinearities. Some of the nonlinearities,however, are preferred by some listeners.

One can not argue another's preference, but ONES PREFERENCE ENDS AT ONES OWN NOSE!

 

[Ported]

Quick throw in from an ex sound engineer that might explain some of the perceptions around this..
Back in the analogue only days if the end product was an LP record then very careful attention was made to make each track as big and bold as it could be using eq, compression etc because of the sure knowledge the a proportion of the energy in that track will disappear once transferred to vinyl (33 LP). Many many times you would here .. "that sounds great here but would not cut it on vinyl."
So the tendancy would be to gloss everything up to be sure it still had some impact left on the record.. A bit like a photo you might want to publish in a poor colour newspaper - you might over saturate it a bit so it looks better once published. So it looks ok in the paper but the original now seems a tad unatural.
I think this contributes to the feeling that digital renditions seem too in yer face compared to off a record.
Personally I prefer them because I have some old masters digitised from my tapes and they sound pretty damn close to the original in lots of cases where the record from the same master definitely does not!
You takes your choice but a 33 LP is never a good rendition of what was worked on for a mix and master to my ears.. but work has often gone in to compensate for the loss...

Some of the more recent recordings I have heard -where much this compensation is not in place .. i.e digital is expected to be the end medium - can sound natural and huge therefore spectacular.

That's what's floating my boat nowadays - not spinning records...

 

[j_j]

Some of the more recent recordings I have heard -where much this compensation is not in place .. i.e digital is expected to be the end medium - can sound natural and huge therefore spectacular.

That's what's floating my boat nowadays - not spinning records...

This is certainly some of the issue. Some of the early LP's appeared to have a lot of 7K boost to them, for instance.