Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[Frank Dernie]

Frank, your trying to twist the point.
Who cares about listening to music you don't like?
For the vast majority of folks who ended up here, they want to listen to the music they love on the best rig they can afford.
Not the 70 yo housewife who loves 60s rock and listens on a cheap Bose radio all day.

And the point of HiFi shows is to highlight a systems capability, something best done with SOTA quality recordings, so that's what they use.
Boring or not, what would you use, some 75 year old LP full of scratches and noise?
Just the nature of the beast.

Fair enough but I’m not trying to twist the point, just that the music is more important then the sound quality for me and most musicians I know.

I don’t find HiFi shows tell me much about SQ because of the music they play but definitely wouldn’t recommend a scratched LP.

I don’t recommend LPs at all, in fact, but that’s what you get at a lot of shows - the business is steeped in the myth of the superiority of analogue, when its only superiority is in the profit it makes IMO.

 

[JP]

The point of this thread was sound quality and the OP making an ill-conceived, ridiculous post about a vinyls SQ.

Aside from the occasional drive by and your apparent boredom, this thread hasn’t been about the OP for over 2000 posts or so.

 

[JP]

I enjoy and prefer good quality playback but I’d rather listen to a beautiful performance of a piece of music I love on a modest system than a fabulous sounding recording of music which bores me - like at most HiFi shows.

There’s plenty of music that I prefer through the in-ceiling speakers in the living room or kitchen over my system.

 

[Sal1950]

I don’t find HiFi shows tell me much about SQ because of the music they play but definitely wouldn’t recommend a scratched LP.

When I go to a show because I'm actually interested in a future purchase, I'll bring the music
I want to demo with me. If they won't play it, I'll just leave.
I do find that now many have a high res streamer at hand for serious requests.
At this point though I don't see a purchase that needs to be demo'd on my radar any more.
We'll see this weekend in Tampa. LOL

There’s plenty of music that I prefer through the in-ceiling speakers in the living room or kitchen over my system.

Why?

 

[fpitas]

Why?

Honestly, some music was so badly produced it pains me to hear it on a good system.

 

[pma]

Boring or not, what would you use, some 75 year old LP full of scratches and noise?

Wow man, you do not realize how wrong you may be. Below is the current rip of the vinyl I bought in USA in 1966, so it is no second hand. Yes only 57 years, mostly played on Shure MM, not much on ancient crystal cartridge. This one:

Whisper Not (Ella Fitzgerald album) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am attaching a short rip in 320kbps mp3.

 

[JP]

Why?

I like the sound of it better that way.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Fair enough but I’m not trying to twist the point, just that the music is more important then the sound quality for me and most musicians I know.

So true for me.

Among other things, I was also interested in technically reproducing the sound of the past in order to be able to play old mono records in a 'historically adequate' way, so to speak. For this purpose I built special systems. Amplifiers with old circuits and highly sensitive loudspeakers, as used in the tube radios of my youth. There are for me quite different approaches to music, or to celebrate music.

On the other hand, of course, I appreciate modern audio technology, use professional tools and components and can also read and understand measurements from Amir. This is not mutually exclusive.

 

[JP]

True. Last year I'd started to take up original mono pressings of specific titles. I gave up as sellers seem to have complete lost touch with any semblance of accurate grading. There's only so much restoration I'm willing to do.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Here is another example from my collection with the famous cellist Pablo Casals. But I also have not only collectors items of classical music, but also old LPs of Wes Montgomery, my hero and role model on the jazz guitar, which let me relive the typical sound of that time.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Why don't you get the one that most accurately reproduces what's in the grooves and be done with it?

The reason I have 2 cars. One for camping, commuting, shopping, and then there's the two seat convertible hard top. For fun.

You have a problem with that?

When you play back recordings from the last century, you are as likely to be playing it back according to the intention of the artist if you have a transistor radio as if you have a studio quality digital decoding device. They recorded with boosted levels in the bass and treble to make up for the listening habits of the buyer.

Further, most of the music I listen to wasn't intended for release. To play back soundboard and audience recordings of rock bands from the 70s I find a little flavoring can help.

Graphic equalizers are useful but generally I find that the changes make the music worse.

 

[Sokel]

How can it truly be about the music if you have no interest in hearing it reproduced in the best possible manner?
That's how you'd show you really cared about the music.
Now if you said you just enjoyed having expensive toys to play with, you'd be correct.

How many of them do you have?
Then divide that number into the total cost of your LP playback rig
How much is it costing you per, to hear a few scratchy, noisy, distorted old records?
Solid evidence please.

Sal,let's make a hypothesis (which is half true).

I absolutely adore Frietz Reiner,right? (that's the true part)
And I know nothing about gear,absolutely zero.
So,I'm asking you who know stuff "what can I do to hear him at his best,ideally,at what they heard at the studio where they produced the music?"

What can be the honest answer?

(disclaimer,I already know they used reel tapes,tube amps and monkey coffin speakers,and I know which ones)

 

[j_j]

Music. It's about the MUSIC.

And so I will play whatever holds the music.

For some more modern stuff that was end-stage LP, I MAY play the CD, but very often "master tape remasters" are obscenities.

 

[j_j]

How can it truly be about the music if you have no interest in hearing it reproduced in the best possible manner?
That's how you'd show you really cared about the music.
Now if you said you just enjoyed having expensive toys to play with, you'd be correct.

How many of them do you have?
Then divide that number into the total cost of your LP playback rig
How much is it costing you per, to hear a few scratchy, noisy, distorted old records?
Solid evidence please.

You're asking ME for "solid evidence"? Seriously, you have to be trolling. I care about where the music is performed and put to media the best way FOR THAT BIT OF MUSIC.

It's about the music. It's not about the media. If what I want is digital, excellent. If not, I'll play LP's. Your profoundly insulting crap about "expensive" is ridiculous. My playback rig is 40 years old. It was quite good then, and still is now. The only money involved is an occasional new stylus for a very stock cartridge.

Your nonsense about "how many" is just as offensive, of course. I had about 30 linear feet of vertically stacked LP's before the CD existed. What do you want me to do? Throw out Linda Rondstadt, Johnny Cash, all the Nonesuch classics, the folkways-legacy recordings that CAN NEVER BE PUT TO CD unless somebody plays an LP and records it?

Yes, I also have a "few" CD's. About 6' by 6' square single layer of CD's. That's because, despite your gratuitous, insulting presumption

ITS ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC

In case you aren't aware, I"m also a leading researcher in DIGITAL MUSIC CREATION, TRANSMISSION, and PLAYBACK. So, yes, I know a bit about digital audio, LP's, tapes, wire recorders (Yes, I've used one), and things you probably never heard of. You can find my C.V. here https://ethw.org/James_D._Johnston . In general, apparently you simply can't stand the idea that somebody would prefer to hear SOME music over NO music, and you're not willing to understand the nature of the euphonic distortions in a decent LP playback. (and which can be implemented in CD as well, of course, although that is rarely done explicitly). I suggest that in the future you honor others preferences, and save your insults for people making false claims, rather than those stating a preference.

As an aside, your presumptious, snide comments also include a couple of really awful logical fallacies. The first is, of course "best possible manner". That presumes, incorrectly, that there is an option for a given performance of a given piece. This is quite often true. Then, of course, you claim, implicitly, that anyone who does not listen in YOUR CHOSEN MANNER does not "care" about the music. That's called "facts not in evidence". Your preference is not my preference, yadda yadda. So your implicit accusation is a terrible straw man fallacy. Then, of course, more facts not in evidence in regard to the cost.

Then MORE facts not in evidence about "how many", MORE facts not in evidence about the cost (moderate cost 40 years ago over,um, I don't know, hundreds of LP's, maybe a thousand), presumptions on "scratchy" when by and large my LP's are in good shape, and cost per play is, well, down to the cost of electricity to run the turntable (30 watts).

So your entire spew is illogical, inaccurate, and insulting.

Did you intend to have a point?

 

[computer-audiophile]

My playback rig is 40 years old. It was quite good then, and still is now.

This statement brings me to another anecdote concerning Haruki Murakami which is a well-known Japanese author and avid jazz fan. I have read all of his books.

Despite his wealth and the ability to afford top-of-the-line audio equipment, he still prefers to listen to his music on old speakers that he's grown accustomed to over the years.
In his book "What I Talk About When I Talk About Running," Murakami describes his attachment to these speakers:

"I still use the same pair of speakers I've been using since my twenties. They're big and they take up space, but they're a part of my life. I've been with them for over thirty years now, and I know them inside and out. The sound they produce is one that fits my mind."

For Murakami, the familiar sound of his old speakers is an essential part of his listening experience, and he sees no need to upgrade to more expensive or modern equipment.

 

[pma]

Haruku

A small correction, Haruki .

 

[computer-audiophile]

A small correction, Haruki .

Thanks, I have corrected the typo.

 

[pma]

understand the nature of the euphonic distortions in a decent LP playback

Do you mean distortion, LF groove noise, or both?

 

[Burning Sounds]

So true for me.

Among other things, I was also interested in technically reproducing the sound of the past in order to be able to play old mono records in a 'historically adequate' way, so to speak. For this purpose I built special systems. Amplifiers with old circuits and highly sensitive loudspeakers, as used in the tube radios of my youth. There are for me quite different approaches to music, or to celebrate music.

On the other hand, of course, I appreciate modern audio technology, use professional tools and components and can also read and understand measurements from Amir. This is not mutually exclusive.

Yes - it's why I have a 50 year old Rock-Ola jukebox - 60s and 70s rock, soul and pop singles sound authentic on it - that is, how I remember them sounding at the time. Yes, I like the way it looks, too, and there is the nostalgia and memories that go with it. It's all part of enjoying music to me.

 

[Sal1950]

Wow man, you do not realize how wrong you may be.

We were discussing the music used at audio shows for demo's
Would you use that to judge the quality of a $500,00 music system?

Honestly, some music was so badly produced it pains me to hear it on a good system.

That I can understand. And the reason why I don't play the 300 vinyl rips I made any more.
With modern lossless streaming, there's nothing I can't listen to in a better sounding digital remaster.
If one or two aren't there, so be it, I can live without them.
I have near 4000 albums of music I love on the hard-drive.
If I listen to 3 a night I could listen for around the next 4 years without hearing the same one twice.
Not counting the numbers available losslessly from streamers
So much music and so little time.
No need to put up with the SQ reproduction issues of vinyl any more.

Yes - it's why I have a 50 year old Rock-Ola jukebox - 60s and 70s rock, soul and pop singles sound authentic on it - that is, how I remember them sounding at the time. Yes, I like the way it looks, too, and there is the nostalgia and memories that go with it. It's all part of enjoying music to me.

I thought we were discussing serious listening time here.
Not playing music for a party.
(Unless playing with the toy is more important than the MUSIC.)