Why do many "high-end" DACs have low specs?

[mansr]

I meant PDM, Pulse Density Modulation. Multi-bit DSD is not PCM. Are you sure Sonoma is not converting everything to wide-DSD?

There is no such thing as multi-bit DSD. There can't be for the trivial reason that DSD is defined to be a 1-bit format. PDM is something else that is equally impossible to edit. So-called DSD-wide is PCM.

 

[curiouspeter]

There is no such thing as multi-bit DSD. There can't be for the trivial reason that DSD is defined to be a 1-bit format. PDM is something else that is equally impossible to edit. So-called DSD-wide is PCM.

Multi-bit PDM is not PCM. You can do a lot with multi-bit PDM. You can also do small edits by converting parts of the stream (second, milliseconds or less) to PCM.

 

[mansr]

Multi-bit PDM is not PCM. You can do a lot with multi-bit PDM.

There is no such thing as multi-bit PDM. It makes no sense.

You can also do small edits by converting parts of the stream (second, milliseconds or less) to PCM.

Yes, and then it is no longer DSD.

 

[danadam]

I'd rather pressure labels to release albums in reasonable formats than manufacturers to support unreasonable formats.

 

[mansr]

I'd rather pressure labels to release albums in reasonable formats than manufacturers to support unreasonable formats.

Meanwhile, there is software that will readily convert anything to anything.

 

[curiouspeter]

There is no such thing as multi-bit PDM. It makes no sense.


Yes, and then it is no longer DSD.

PDM can be multi-bit and multi-level. DSD as-we-know-it is 1-bit, 2-level PDM.

PCM encodes absolute level. PDM encodes relative levels. They are not the same thing.

 

[curiouspeter]

I'd rather pressure labels to release albums in reasonable formats than manufacturers to support unreasonable formats.

It is trivial for manufacturers to support extra formats. If a $100 Topping can do that well, why can't "high end" equipment do the same?

 

[mansr]

PDM can be multi-bit

What does that even mean?

and multi-level

No, that would be PAM. Quite different.

DSD as-we-know-it is 1-bit, 2-level PDM.

Kind of, sort of, if you really insist. DSD is a best analysed as a degenerate form of PCM. It also happens to resemble discrete-time PDM, which is of no practical benefit.

PCM encodes absolute level. PDM encodes relative levels.

Now you're talking about (A)DPCM. That's a different thing again.

How does a person become this confused? Do we need a new warning label?

 

[curiouspeter]

What does that even mean?


No, that would be PAM. Quite different.


Kind of, sort of, if you really insist. DSD is a best analysed as a degenerate form of PCM. It also happens to resemble discrete-time PDM, which is of no practical benefit.


Now you're talking about (A)DPCM. That's a different thing again.

How does a person become this confused? Do we need a new warning label?

Not saying DSD has any benefits. But what's wrong with staying close to the original for as long as possible?

 

[mansr]

Not saying DSD has any benefits. But what's wrong with staying close to the original for as long as possible?

I'd rather convert it to something sane as soon as possible.

 

[FrantzM]

Not saying DSD has any benefits. But what's wrong with staying close to the original for as long as possible?

In what way does DSD "stays close to the original" that regular PCM you know, Redbook, doesn't?

 

[curiouspeter]

In what way does DSD "stays close to the original" that regular PCM you know, Redbook, doesn't?

DSD would be closer to the original if the recording was made in DSD, no?

Of course, if it was made in DXD, it would not make sense to buy the DSD version.

Redbook may seem adequate for most situations but what if you want to use DSP to make it play 5% faster in the future?

 

[Mnyb]

but If you use an equliser why convert back to DSD again ?

 

[curiouspeter]

but If you use an equliser why convert back to DSD again ?

It is never converted to PCM unless I do DSP Volume in Roon. Instead, I use Fixed Volume, which gets attenuated with the analog volume control in my amp.

Also, I don't do EQ for my headphones setup.

 

[polmuaddib]

I think that OP wanted to know why expensive DACs don't support higher resolution formats when cheap DACs do. He did not invite everyone to bash him for wanting to listen DSD. It is becoming like a dogma with PCM and redbook.
Why do some people have strong feelings about DSD?
Ok, DSD itself might not sound better then PCM and might be even inferior to it because of it's limitations. But, there is some value in the production part. Producers might try to preserve some purity to music with as little processing as possible when they are intentionally recording in DSD. I know that a lot of DSD files are just conversions from PCM, but a few are true DSD recordings with very little processing. And that limitation might be advantage paradoxally.
Anyway, I also noticed that there is more DSD recordings every year coming out. Cookie Marenco and others are pushing those formats.
And I also prefer listening to native format in native bitrate and resolution, even though I most likely would not hear a difference in ABX.

 

[curiouspeter]

I think that OP wanted to know why expensive DACs don't support higher resolution formats when cheap DACs do. He did not invite everyone to bash him for wanting to listen DSD. It is becoming like a dogma with PCM and redbook.
Why do some people have strong feelings about DSD?
Ok, DSD itself might not sound better then PCM and might be even inferior to it because of it's limitations. But, there is some value in the production part. Producers might try to preserve some purity to music with as little processing as possible when they are intentionally recording in DSD. I know that a lot of DSD files are just conversions from PCM, but a few are true DSD recordings with very little processing. And that limitation might be advantage paradoxally.
Anyway, I also noticed that there is more DSD recordings every year coming out. Cookie Marenco and others are pushing those formats.
And I also prefer listening to native format in native bitrate and resolution, even though I most likely would not hear a difference in ABX.

Thanks! You are a better communicator than me.

I am not against PCM, but if there is a conversion, I want to be the one making the choice (and the conversion). On NativeDSD, DSD64 is frequently the cheapest and smallest version to buy. That said, if I know the recording was made in DXD I would just buy the DXD. Fortunately, the site makes that information available.

I love encodings as much as many people like analog designs. They just have a certain mathematical beauty. I listen to MQA mostly because I find the encoding design very interesting.

 

[NYfan2]

To answer the owners question because it's something I have asked myself.
I guess one of the reasons is also that many "high end" company's don't upgrade their product line every year, so a products is sold for 4 or 5years and the smaller company's upgrade maybe once in the 7 or 8 years their product line. Als at smaller company's there is a small R&D department so the development time is long and when a new product is released it already doesn't have the latest components.
Ofcourse there are company's who are very fast with releasing new state of the art products but often these are cheaper products and the numbers sold are higher so there is more budget for R&D.

 

[curiouspeter]

To answer the owners question because it's something I have asked myself.
I guess one of the reasons is also that many "high end" company's don't upgrade their product line every year, so a products is sold for 4 or 5years and the smaller company's upgrade maybe once in the 7 or 8 years their product line. Als at smaller company's there is a small R&D department so the development time is long and when a new product is released it already doesn't have the latest components.
Ofcourse there are company's who are very fast with releasing new state of the art products but often these are cheaper products and the numbers sold are higher so there is more budget for R&D.

That is a good explanation.

But I also wonder why products like the Schiit Modius (AK4493) are limited to 24/192. The chip should be able to handle 32/768 and DSD512.

 

[Mnyb]

That is a good explanation.

But I also wonder why products like the Schiit Modius (AK4493) are limited to 24/192. The chip should be able to handle 32/768 and DSD512.

Can it be the xmos chip for USB or some other chip they use for the USB connection ? SPDIFF is limited to24/192 by design, that would not change supose DoP of DSD64 may be possible over spdiff .

So a DAC for you would have the latest and greatest USB implementation.

Example I bougth the Topping D70 on Sale the New D70s has MQA diffrence in the USB department seems to be XMOS XU208 vs XMOS XU216

 

[Mnyb]

Just for fun, I was browsing the specs of a few "high-end" Roon Ready DACs. It turns out many of them are limited at PCM 24/192 and/or DSD64 over network. Why is that?

@NYfan2 the OP was about over network . Most DAC's support a local USB connection of very high bitrates . so thats not the question

Then it must clearly be the streamer implementation inside these DAC's .

* Limitations of the streamer software and DAC mfg is bad at software and do not supply this themselves it is some app they like and they bundle that .

* Limitations in Linux ?

* Limitations in RaspberryPi hardware which is the base of many streamers , they all have USB problems for example.

* A wellt hougth of tradeoff ! hogging the network with to large streams may cause reliability issuses for many customers that do not have the latest in network tech, so it is sane imho to let the server for example roon downsample on the fly . As there is no downside your server would hardly notice and soundqality will not change . Flaky network behavior can doom a product a mfg will not go there.

Work around build a roon player in small computer like an intel NUC connect the DAC via USB .

So if you really want to keep the original very fast rate its a two part solution a roon endpiont buildt from computer hardware with good USB spec and then a modern DAC with good USB implementation.

I was earlier suggesting that this may be wild goose chase and really a no problem I was just questioning OP assessment that there is a problem to be solved . If it easy go for it , but to much hassle and money into it for not much return ? it was no ill intent.