Which amp of these two is best for the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62?

[DanielT]

Which amp of these two is best for the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62?Edit: Prerequisite, starting point that the amplifier is able to reproduce the signal as linearly as possible together with the speaker in question.

In this case, remove the amp power (or rather start from the test below for Aiyima, i.e. power supply: 32 volt, 5 amp switching power supply) as a part of the equation.
Just consider how these amps handle the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 best.

AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 Review (Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AIYIMA A07 desktop amplifier based on TPA3255 class D amplifier chip. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. The cost is US $72 on Amazon including prime shipping. And as of this shipping, it also included a 32 volt, 5...

audiosciencereview.com

V.S.:

An older NAD amp but based on the results in Amir's test:

Review and Measurements of NAD C 320BEE PWR Amplifier

This is a review and detailed measurements of the NAD C 320BEE power (speaker) amplifier. It is on kind loan. The C 320BEE is a vintage product, dating back to 2003 I think. The BEE designation is apparently a reference to Bjorn Erik Edvardsen who was one of their designers. Can't tell if he...

audiosciencereview.com

(issue results in Amir's test)

How should one interpret the measurements in these tests in order to determine which amplifier can handle the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 best? Observe in reality? FR deviations is the most decisive criterion.

I see FR deviations in these cases as the most problematic part. Or do both amplifiers handle FR deviations equally well?

Amir:
"However, note the area I have circled. Impedance is high at about 8 ohms but the phase angle is quite acute at nearly 50 degrees. This means the speaker will ask for current when the output voltage is very low. So you better have a beefy amplifier to drive this speaker."

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly purchased new and drop shipped to me for testing. The DBR-62 costs US $600 a pair from multiple sources/dealers. The DBR-62 comes in black and walnut finish or the distressed Oak and...

audiosciencereview.com

Selection of the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 made because it is a (the most? ) recommended speaker on the ASR.

 

[burkm]

Just wonder, why the Aiyima A07 is been mentioned here, because the Fosi Audio V3 / 48V is quite a bit better at (almost) the same price, at least if the ASR review of the Fosi is been used for comparison.
Even the users, who have it, seem to be on the side of the Fosi Audio V3 now...

 

[ZolaIII]

Well knowing you I doubt DBR62's will go without a sub or more of them.
Which of course changes things a lot.
Amplifier for running solo DBR62's should have headroom and handle good soft clipping without voltage collapse so one with power supply that can handle longer peeks and good thermal handling. So probably old Nad with traditional power supply transformer.
Elac DBR62's will be easy to drive if you high cut them above the mark (Fs for each & every woffer) so let's say 120 Hz crossover with high pass of course but then it's recommend to go with 2.2 stereo setup. Simply put power amplifier won't stay at so high voltage when impedance drops sharply (relatively to LPS) so it will be easier to it to bare it on prolonged periods and will heat up less and last longer.
The remarkable thing you will get out DBR62's crossed like that (and with port cuff cut out) is almost no cabinet refractions and very good decay times (Waterfall and RT60 plots).
I hope this helps and have a nice time Daniel! By the way how is last DIY project getting along?

 

[ninetylol]

Well knowing you I doubt DBR62's will go without a sub or more of them.
Which of course changes things a lot.
Amplifier for running solo DBR62's should have headroom and handle good soft clipping without voltage collapse so one with power supply that can handle longer peeks and good thermal handling. So probably old Nad with traditional power supply transformer.
Elac DBR62's will be easy to drive if you high cut them above the mark (Fs for each & every woffer) so let's say 120 Hz crossover with high pass of course but then it's recommend to go with 2.2 stereo setup. Simply put power amplifier won't stay at so high voltage when impedance drops sharply (relatively to LPS) so it will be easier to it to bare it on prolonged periods and will heat up less and last longer.
The remarkable thing you will get out DBR62's crossed like that (and with port cuff cut out) is almost no cabinet refractions and very good decay times (Waterfall and RT60 plots).
I hope this helps and have a nice time Daniel! By the way how is last DIY project getting along?

Isnt a Crossover at 120hz a bit high? Svs recommends to Set it at 80hz with this speaker.

 

[ZolaIII]

Isnt a Crossover at 120hz a bit high? Svs recommends to Set it at 80hz with this speaker.

If you want to cut out Fs (only a bit more nasty with this driver then usual) obviously not (impedance/phase graph).

 

[ninetylol]

If you want to cut out Fs (only a bit more nasty with this driver then usual) obviously not (impedance/phase graph).

Fs is the frequency where Magnitude and Phase crosses? I dont really understand whats exactly shown here besides Amir saying its hard for the amp.

If you could explain this a bit to a noob like me I would be grateful.

 

[ZolaIII]

Fs is the frequency where Magnitude and Phase crosses? I dont really understand whats exactly shown here besides Amir saying its hard for the amp.

If you could explain this a bit to a noob like me I would be grateful.

It doesn't get simper then this:

So when you cut out impedance peek (self low) amplifier won't be at such high voltage or you gained cuple of dB for it to be on a same one and it will easier bare amperage increase from low impedance. That's a shows easy to understand version without going trough specific processes.

 

[ninetylol]

It doesn't get simper then this:
View attachment 324089
So when you cut out impedance peek (self low) amplifier won't be at such high voltage or you gained cuple of dB for it to be on a same one and it will easier bare amperage increase from low impedance. That's a shows easy to understand version without going trough specific processes.

I always thought its harder for the amp to push through high Ohms because it has to push higher voltages at that point.

From this article the essence seems:

Since impedance is a measure of how much the speaker resists current, the lower the impedance in ohms, the more power the speaker will draw from your receiver. Because of that, a 4 ohm speaker is considered more “power hungry” and will tax your amp more than a 6 or 8 ohm speaker.

So it actually seems opposite and the lowest impedance point is the hardest to drive? Is that because the amp has to push high currents which is harder to do? (from your comic: its harder to push a bigger current guy because you need more force/work/voltage)

 

[ZolaIII]

If it stays at higher voltage it's harder to deal with higher Amperage, more heat is produced and entropy kicks in so it soft clips, until falling apart and voltage collapse. So it can't actually lower the rail much or switch it on dynamic load (which this is) and stays at voltage levels it doesn't have to go in the first place when you cut it off and now it handless much better constant almost steady loads and bottom speakers impedance from cut point. I hope it's still not too difficult to understand which it will become if we start even remotely seriously to speak about entropy.

 

[ninetylol]

I think i Lack some basic principles because i only understand 20% of what you are saying, but I will be reading into it now. Thanks

From what I understand the phase angle determines how much power is flowing.

A negative phase means it asks for more current, while a positive phase means it will ask for more voltage? Seems wrong

 

[ninetylol]

@ZolaIII
I still cant grasp the whole concept of phase, but am I correct that looking at the impedance/phase graph you dont want both values to peak or bottom out at the same time?

 

[burkm]

A power amp needs to feed voltage and current into a speaker, depending on the impedance and the phase angle of the speaker at its individual frequency. Due to the drivers (chassis) and the crossover, this impedance plus the phase is not constant, but varies quite a bit across the frequency range of the speaker. In this case (6 Ohm specified) the impedance varies between its individual minimum of about 5 Ohm and its maximum of about 48 Ohm (!), whilst the phase varies -almost symmetrical between appr. +52° and -52°. The combination of impedance (+7.5 Ohm) plus a large negative phase angle (~-52°) leads to rather high current needs of the speaker at this frequency, which might reach some of the limits of the power amplifier used.

 

[ninetylol]

A power amp needs to feed voltage and current into a speaker, depending on the impedance and the phase angle of the speaker at its individual frequency. Due to the drivers (chassis) and the crossover, this impedance plus the phase is not constant, but varies quite a bit across the frequency range of the speaker. In this case (6 Ohm specified) the impedance varies between its individual minimum of about 5 Ohm and its maximum of about 48 Ohm (!), whilst the phase varies -almost symmetrical between appr. +52° and -52°. The combination of impedance (+7.5 Ohm) plus a large negative phase angle (~-52°) leads to rather high current needs of the speaker at this frequency, which might reach some of the limits of the power amplifier used.

Thanks this explains it pretty well.

Would it be also problematic if:

1. impedance is high (lower voltage) + (positive) +52° phase angle?

2. Isnt a very high impedance also too much for some amps? For examble Aiyima A07 Max which i have only got a 36V power supply

Also isnt the part at 95Hz even worse since its -58° Phase at 15 Ohms? Or do you only look where the two lines cross?

 

[DanielT]

Just wonder, why the Aiyima A07 is been mentioned here, because the Fosi Audio V3 / 48V is quite a bit better at (almost) the same price, at least if the ASR review of the Fosi is been used for comparison.
Even the users, who have it, seem to be on the side of the Fosi Audio V3 now...

Okay but if we take Fosi Audio V3:

Fosi Audio V3 Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Fosi Audio V3 stereo amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $89.99 with stock 32 volt supply. Price goes up to $109.99 with the 48 volt supply. There is a $10 discount coupon right now. Despite its budget price, the V3...

audiosciencereview.com

And if Fosi Audio V3 plugs in together with the DBR-62, can we then say something about the FR? 50 Ohms at a little over 2 kHz. How does work with the Fosi Audio V3 which seems to increase dB at 8 Ohms? What will happen with 50 Ohm at 2 kHz with the Fosi Audio V3 amp?

 

[DanielT]

I hope this helps and have a nice time Daniel! By the way how is last DIY project getting along?

Nothing right now. Don't have access to the hobby workshop, unfortunately.

Edit:
BUT, I managed to get hold of a pair of vintage Tannoy T225 Mayfair in good condition, at a good price. Damn nice 10 inch coaxials I must say.
Recap done on crossover by the seller (a friend of mine). Maybe it wasn't needed, but he had the stuff for it at home and it's old speakers, so it might make sense to do it.

 

[ZolaIII]

Nothing right now. Don't have access to the hobby workshop, unfortunately.

I am a bit in post apocalyptic mess my self had a PC problem and dead HDMI cable yesterday. Have to finish getting and putting up canvas for a beamer and beamer it self as my listening room is absolute mess as it is. It nerves me a lot.
Have fun and enjoy it!

 

[burkm]

You would have to take the room acoustics into consideration also.
High impedance needs high voltage to get a minimum current across. The ASR measurements were mostly done with the 48VDC / 5A power brick. The stated opposite maximum is at 44 Ohm and 35° phase angle, which seems to provide less of a challenge because of the much lower currents (and power) needed at 2kHz.
The culprit might be the 120 Hz at which the maximum current is needed and where much of the amps power is therefore - usually - also needed.

 

[ninetylol]

You would have to take the room acoustics into consideration also.
High impedance needs high voltage to get a minimum current across. The ASR measurements were mostly done with the 48VDC / 5A power brick. The stated opposite maximum is at 44 Ohm and 35° phase angle, which seems to provide less of a challenge because of the much lower currents (and power) needed at 2kHz.
The culprit might be the 120 Hz at which the maximum current is needed and where much of the amps power is therefore - usually - also needed.

I still dont fully understand how to read the phase/impedance graph

So the most important thing is to actually look at the biggest value phase angle? The higher the angle more taxing it is on the amp? Especially paired in the lower frequencies bandwith where more power is located in.

Or do you only look where phase and impedance cross in the graph?


I still dont really understand how the phase correlates with the impedance, it seems a high value phase is always bad:
1. at low impedance you are already taxing the amp anyway because it ask for much more current at low voltage
2. at higher impedance you need more voltage + lots of current from the phase angle = even more power?

Maybe im missing some basic principle here of how power amps work.

 

[burkm]

A high value phase angle (plus or minus) is not what You want, but You have to consider also the speaker power needed at that frequency.

 

[ninetylol]

A high value phase angle (plus or minus) is not what You want, but You have to consider also the speaker power needed at that frequency.

But the impedance does not change the power needed, just the voltage/ampere ratio?