When using subs , does the size of the monitors even matter?

[abdo123]

Yes the maximum output in the 100Hz to 200Hz region is determined by the size of the monitor.

But there are no real benefits above 8 inch, except maybe better sensitivity.

 

[peanuts]

still a speaker with a 12-15" has a lot more midbass in practice in my experience. i see people calculate high volumes combined with a subwoofer all the time, and it does not sound like that at all to me.

 

[abdo123]

The typical reason why we feel like we can localize the sub is poor frequency response (we have significant peaks in the response that makes it obvious that it's the subwoofer that is playing) combined with the fact that we do after all know where it is. So when poor integration makes it obvious where the subwoofer is, it's also easy to trick ourselves into thinking we can hear where the sound comes from - since we already know it.

This is hardly been my experience to be honest, Anything more than 80Hz 24db/oct or 100Hz 48dB/oct and my subwoofers start making their own phantom center with male vocals. It all depends on whether the content you're watching has fundamentals or harmonics in 100-200Hz region.

Without compromising the location of the sub woofer, I wouldn't do anything higher.

 

[abdo123]

still a speaker with a 12-15" has a lot more midbass in practice in my experience. i see people calculate high volumes combined with a subwoofer all the time, and it does not sound like that at all to me.

Well we're talking about domestic spaces where levels higher than 110dB SPL are way more than enough.

Even very compromised designs (5.25 inch, like the LS50 Meta) can do a max (continuous) SPL of 95dB @ 100Hz. Which is already plenty for a lot of people.

 

[sigbergaudio]

This is hardly been my experience to be honest, Anything more than 80Hz 24db/oct or 100Hz 48dB/oct and my subwoofers start making their own phantom center with male vocals. It all depends on whether the content you're watching has fundamentals or harmonics in 100-200Hz region.

Without compromising the location of the sub woofer, I wouldn't do anything higher.

It's depends how your subwoofers are placed, yes.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Well we're talking about domestic spaces where levels higher than 110dB SPL are way more than enough.

Even very compromised designs (5.25 inch, like the LS50 Meta) can do a max (continuous) SPL of 95dB @ 100Hz. Which is already plenty for a lot of people.

The sound and experience of one 5.25" pushing maximum capacity and 10-20% THD at 95dB is very different from say a 12" doing the same at 0,5% THD. The 100-500hz area can certainly benefit from some cone area and power even though it doesn't need as much excursion as lower frequencies.

 

[abdo123]

The sound and experience of one 5.25" pushing maximum capacity and 10-20% THD at 95dB is very different from say a 12" doing the same at 0,5% THD. The 100-500hz area can certainly benefit from some cone area and power even though it doesn't need as much excursion as lower frequencies.

I didn’t imply that the experiences will be the same, but a 5.25 inch coaxial (VERY compromised) can still output 107dB @100Hz (6 dB extra from stereo, 6 dB extra from LR crossover at 100Hz) which should be plenty for 99% of people in domestic settings.

 

[Wesayso]

That same 5.25 inch coaxial mounted between a series of woofers with clever filters will have a way bigger chance of great in-room frequency response as things like floor or ceiling bounce can be seriously diminished. There are more reasons for larger speakers, beyond just the Sd, which is a valid reason all by itself.

A single woofer will have a floor bounce dip, caused by the distance between it and the listener and the height of the woofer off of the floor.
Add another woofer and those dimensions are changed for that second woofer. It fills in the hole of the first woofer but it also creates a dip of it's own.
A dip that gets partially filled by the first woofer. Add 2 more woofers like the Kef Reference 5 and you'll hardly see any dip at all. It becomes directional at
frequencies where the floor dip used to be.

Will it sound the same, having speakers like that Reference 5 (with subwoofers) or the single 5.25 inch coaxial plus subs? Nope...
For more than one reason.

 

[hege]

which should be plenty for 99% of people in domestic settings.

That's so tired argument. You can also say that 99% of people have never heard of this forum, or even a really good setup. Or never enjoyed a fast motorcycle, or..

Most might not care (or might not be able), but let's atleast have some decend goals?

 

[Sokel]

Can anyone tell the crossover point here?

 

[Schollaudio]

still a speaker with a 12-15" has a lot more midbass in practice in my experience. i see people calculate high volumes combined with a subwoofer all the time, and it does not sound like that at all to me.

If a DIYer is nutty about THD and port resonances, it's hard to beat a 15" in seal box. There's plenty of measurements of small bass reflex boxes where THD rises below 200hz and port resonances are seen in the 600=1Khz area.

 

[CJH]

For correct crossover performance, driver should have a flat frequency response an octave beyond the crossover point. Most (all) 5.5" drivers will have big rise in distortion below 150Hz at 95dB. Even difficult to find a 6" flat to 80Hz. with distortion below 1-2% and efficiency above 85dB. Amir needs to review a good measuring analog electronic crossover so we can easily add subs to our monitors without having to go digital.
CJH

 

[Digital_Thor]

Can anyone tell the crossover point here?

View attachment 211225

No.... because you only gave us one measurement. Simply not enough to tell us anything.
I found it to be best, to have the mains being able to run pretty low - more bass-sources - the better. Let the mains run off smoothly... preferably no high pass filter... because that creates phase shifts, which in return creates a more uneven response, as you move your head around. So we need more measurements to see where your subs and mains, do not blend well

 

[Sokel]

No.... because you only gave us one measurement. Simply not enough to tell us anything.
I found it to be best, to have the mains being able to run pretty low - more bass-sources - the better. Let the mains run off smoothly... preferably no high pass filter... because that creates phase shifts, which in return creates a more uneven response, as you move your head around. So we need more measurements to see where your subs and mains, do not blend well

I did that as a test,parameters are 2.8 metres for the mic,10" in about a 100 litres cab for low,6.5" in about 30 litrers cab for mid and I put the crossover point to 240 Hz (actively bi-amped),one on top of the other.It doesn't sound bad at all!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I don't know if I understood correctly. If we want to combine monitors with subwoofers, it is better to have the bass coming down from the monitors as low as possible? And for the lowest part of the band, subwoofers?

It is not either/or. The lower the crossover, the less likely it will be localizable as a source separate from the small main speakers ("monitors"). OTOH...............................

Generally speaking a decent subwoofer will do a better job below 100hz than most speakers.

or even higher, especially with small main speakers. Also, since crossovers are not absolute cliff-like shifts, small main speakers will be required to have equal power output capabilities as the subwoofer in the crossover region (and slightly above) for balance and to avoid pushing them into distortion.

Amir needs to review a good measuring analog electronic crossover so we can easily add subs to our monitors without having to go digital.

Let me suggest the CR-1 Active Subwoofer Crossover.

 

[Digital_Thor]

I did that as a test,parameters are 2.8 metres for the mic,10" in about a 100 litres cab for low,6.5" in about 30 litrers cab for mid and I put the crossover point to 240 Hz (actively bi-amped),one on top of the other.It doesn't sound bad at all!

No one says it sounds bad ... we all have pretty good sounding systems - right
You can basically do as you please, since the filter simply acts out your wishes.... but not necessarily gives you an optimal result - since - there are limits to any type of construction.
240Hz is high as a crossover between subwoofer and woofer.... there will be strange things happening, when you move the microphone - or your head - if you don't have some serious control over phase and/or delay. Just look at what Lyngdorf does :
https://www.bestofhighend.com/lyngdorf-bw-3-high-bandwidth-sub/

 

[Sokel]

No one says it sounds bad ... we all have pretty good sounding systems - right
You can basically do as you please, since the filter simply acts out your wishes.... but not necessarily gives you an optimal result - since - there are limits to any type of construction.
240Hz is high as a crossover between subwoofer and woofer.... there will be strange things happening, when you move the microphone - or your head - if you don't have some serious control over phase and/or delay. Just look at what Lyngdorf does :
https://www.bestofhighend.com/lyngdorf-bw-3-high-bandwidth-sub/

Of course you're right.My normal frequency is 120Hz but is fun testing.The low section is not exactly a sub,think of it as a third way with a F3 at 32Hz.It's a custom built (not DIY) on progress tailored to the specific room.
I did that test even higher,at 330hz for example,replicating normal crossover,like ATC for example witch has similar units.
It's fun!

 

[crazycloud]

Most musical information is in the 3 or 4 octaves above the average 80Hz sub xover, so yes. A 6.5 is not going to give the same visceral impact as a 15 in the same bandwidth, especially when you want some elevated level on occasion.

 

[Adi777]

So how many people, so many opinions.

 

[sigbergaudio]

So how many people, so many opinions.

The answer to almost any question is "it depends", so it's hard to get a single answer in these type of discussions.

Also, you're on the internet, which means you will always have people who answer despite not really knowing what the answer is...