What limits near field monitors to be used far field?

[SorenTyson]

Hi,

The Neumann 120II thread included a discussion if they could be used for far field.

I thought that question is generic and not limited to that speaker.

So, what limits a near field speaker to be used far field? Is it SPL and if so then what if listening at low volume within the SPL capability of the speaker?

And what if adding a sub…

Thanks for any explanations,

Soeren

 

[Lambda]

Is it SPL

yes.

and if so then what if listening at low volume within the SPL capability of the speaker?

then its fine.

 

[fuzzychaos]

At reasonable volumes, yes, they can be used mid/farfield. Adding a sub will definitely increase the viability of using them farfield.

 

[LTig]

Yep. The same is true for similar sized passive speakers using a 5" woofer.

 

[AudioJester]

The real limitation was one guy repeatedly preaching the should only be used in nearfield.
The rest of us have been enjoying these speakers in various configurations for years - understanding their spl limitations

 

[DWPress]

With small speakers you are limited in SPL before the drivers start distorting. Pure physics, a 5" driver cannot move as much air as a 12" can no matter the voice coil size or Xmax. If you never turn it up above 86dB you have many many choices. Those of us who like to occasionally turn it up to 100+ dB and get super clean sound 12 feet away have really big speakers.

 

[kemmler3D]

Pure physics, a 5" driver cannot move as much air as a 12" can no matter the voice coil size or Xmax.

Well, with unlimited xmax, that's not technically true.

If you never turn it up above 86dB you have many many choices. Those of us who like to occasionally turn it up to 100+ dB and get super clean sound 12 feet away have really big speakers.

Accurate

 

[Robbo99999]

Hi,

The Neumann 120II thread included a discussion if they could be used for far field.

I thought that question is generic and not limited to that speaker.

So, what limits a near field speaker to be used far field? Is it SPL and if so then what if listening at low volume within the SPL capability of the speaker?

And what if adding a sub…

Thanks for any explanations,

Soeren

I'm also thinking good directivity is increasingly important when using speakers at a larger distance because you're getting more reflections at higher distance so therefore good directivity improves the quality of the reflections; whereas in nearfield you get more direct sound so directivity isn't such a large factor. I don't mind if I'm corrected on this point, because it's not a point that I've seen raised a lot (at all?), and I'm just thinking it through. Wouldn't mind confirmation that I'm on the right track.

 

[DSJR]

I'd confirm that a tiny main driver (5" really is tiny if asked to reproduce bass of any kind) will be limited by the laws of physics and if asked to reproduce sub 120Hz frequencies at any real level, the bass and mids too will be very distorted by the poor cone flapping away back and forth.

I heard once the rather incredible difference, when a tailored sub was added to some then popular small (passive too) monitors, said cubic sub with four 8" drivers on one face and electronic crossover set around 100Hz or so allowing the bass to gently tail away below 80Hz or so was put ion the circuit. The bass didn't power out as it wasn't intended to BUT THE MIDRANGE had air, space and depth that the stock speaker just didn't have, this at lowish volumes too! Obviously, the entire 'system' could go much louder as well now the main speaker drivers were relieved of all that huffing and puffing (for want of a better term).

 

[Sokel]

A silly question:
We read all the time that at some distance drivers add up giving the optimal result.
Is there some point beyond this distance that it un-adds up again?

 

[Prana Ferox]

A silly question:
We read all the time that at some distance drivers add up giving the optimal result.
Is there some point beyond this distance that it un-adds up again?

For the most part, 'integration' is a myth. To some degree that's what the Klippel charts show, 'poor integration' is mostly poor off-axis response.

In theory, at frequencies near the crossover point you could get some comb filtering effect from the two drivers. Again, that shows on the Klippel. And part of the design of the crossover / placement of the speakers relative to each other on the baffle is to avoid that.

 

[DWPress]

Well, with unlimited xmax, that's not technically true.

Does such a thing actually exist? Not trolling, I'd love to see an example and integrate it!

Unlimited sounds unreasonable to me and if a 5" speaker could play even 50Hz without distortion at 96dB all that cone movement would raise hell with the even more crucial midrange frequencies before XO to tweeter.

 

[LTig]

A silly question:
We read all the time that at some distance drivers add up giving the optimal result.
Is there some point beyond this distance that it un-adds up again?

No.

 

[AnalogSteph]

So, what limits a near field speaker to be used far field?

a) SPL (since Xmax is finite as discussed)
b) dispersion

The Neumanns do have narrower dispersion than some, but go down to the central and lower midrange, and they will inevitably involve the room more than a larger speaker (the physics of baffle size and such). Far-field response approaches sound power, so you can estimate the tonal shift to be expected from that (given a tonally neutral room, a big if). Somewhat dark with with a certain V shape to it.

The competition:

Some larger models for comparison:

 

[Sicaris]

I'm very new to looking at these speaker graphs but I'm interested in this question about using near field speakers in far field. What I can't figure out is what differences in the above plots I should be looking at between the small and large speakers. Thanks!

 

[DWPress]

What I can't figure out is what differences in the above plots I should be looking at between the small and large speakers. Thanks!

The left side of the graph indicates the SPL achieved while having the same voltage applied is a good start.

 

[Sicaris]

Thanks, I think from @AnalogSteph's post the point was that for far field listening we can look at the sound power (dashed red) line to get an approximation of frequency response. I assume the point is that the larger speakers should have a better far field frequency response (correct me if I'm wrong) but the plots look the same to me other than the expected greater bass extension and higher absolute SPL. Is there a particular section of the frequency response in the smaller speakers that drops more?

 

[StefanSweden]

I guess your prefered way of listen also Plays in? If you have your reclined chair with a glass of red wine you'd want a small dispersion of the sound so it all beams at you both vertical and horizontal?

Likewise If you have your speakers in your everyday livingroom, you wouldnt mind a larger dispersion?

Or am I completly wrong?