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What is your audio Philosophy?

Frank Dernie

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It's getting there.

My turntable is a restored / upgraded 1982 vintage Michell Gyro. Moving towards an Ortofon SPU (in production since 1958 in various flavors) cartridge and an SME M2-9R, which is a re-imagining / updating of the 3009 (which was in production from 1959 - 2003).
The 3009 added quite a lot of spurious output to the cartridge signal, particularly the removable headshell version due to arm resonances being quite vigorous at the headshell such that the "static" part of the cartridge wasn't. I had been a proud owner of one for 5 or 6 years before I measured one when I went to work for Garrard in 1975. I was more than a little disappointed, the Garrard arms, whilst having plastic slide in cartridge carriers, were quite a bit better in terms of getting an accurate signal from the cartridge.
It is the difference between well engineered in the "understand the physics" and "cost effective" sense over the well engineered in the "nicely machined" and "nicely made" sense.
 

watchnerd

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The 3009 added quite a lot of spurious output to the cartridge signal, particularly the removable headshell version due to arm resonances being quite vigorous at the headshell such that the "static" part of the cartridge wasn't. I had been a proud owner of one for 5 or 6 years before I measured one when I went to work for Garrard in 1975. I was more than a little disappointed, the Garrard arms, whilst having plastic slide in cartridge carriers, were quite a bit better in terms of getting an accurate signal from the cartridge.
It is the difference between well engineered in the "understand the physics" and "cost effective" sense over the well engineered in the "nicely machined" and "nicely made" sense.

Yeah, all those reasons are why I'm not going for an original / restored 3009.
 

Frank Dernie

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Yeah, all those reasons are why I'm not going for an original / restored 3009.
The twin drawpin headshell is probably the only gain in this respect between the M2 and the old 3009. Does the latest SPU have 2 pins for the headshell lock?
From a performance perspective a removable headshell is poor but at least it allows cartridge fanatics to play!
 

garbulky

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I'm surprised that a lot of people's philosophy seems to be somewhat similar to mine in what they are looking for in an audio system. And that is....how does it sound?

As some of you know, I'm pretty subjective in the way I approach audio. Having first admitted all the faults of the wonderful device that is the ear and the brain in subjective listening like short term memory, subjective bias, fooling oneself, not as sensitive in some regions as one may think.... I put extreme faith in what I hear as being the principle guide. This means I do trust what I hear. I do trust what I remember. And I find it counter productive when people tell me that I shouldn't be hearing what I'm hearing. How did they know?! I certainly didn't tell them! :D

For me, the subjective approach is important and though we do hear differently and we do place different emphasis on things that we like, I do not think that we are all so vastly different from each other that we have tremendously different types of experiences. But regardless, it comes down to does this sound good to you. And if it does, pursue that. Because if all the theory in the world can't tell you what you are going to like and it is absolutely the only measure that matters.

Anyway, I am a fan of room treatments, they providing some of the best value for money I've spent. I am also a fan for purist two channel. I decided a long time ago I would rather have the best two channel setup I could have than a decent multichannel for the same amount of money. Once I reach my satisfaction with two channel, I may switch towards adding on multichannel.
So being that way, it means I like dual mono stuff or monoblocks. I like torroids, class A, balanced architecture etc. Not really concerned about cables though I do have thick ones. I also like the way dual subwoofers sound.

Having played acoustic instruments since I was young, I found that I gravitate to hearing acoustic instruments played in an acoustic space. Though close miking still tends to happen a lot due to recording limitations, I really do prefer to hear the space of the recording and the instruments placed within it. My priorities have been three main things.
1. Soundstage and reproduction of room ambience and space.
2. Detail in microdynamics.
3. Tone.

1. Soundstage - where I find things lacking is a seamless left to right integration. The sound has to come towards you but also go behind the plane of the speakers as well. Good reproduction of room space. I've only heard this in very few setups. This is the ability to place the room of the recording in your room. Not an easy task.

2. Detail in microdynamics can really push a system to be revealing. Microdynamics is a reflection of the speed of a system and this is how you can integrate very quick sounds which normally would collapse in to a broad musical mush. Microdynamics allow individual performers to express themselves and make things more realistic.

3. Tone is usually where things tend to fall down for me in a setup where other things may be done admirably. if it doesn't sound like real instruments - especially in the mids and treble, then it doesn't sound right to me. If a violin, guitar or piano sounds too "treble heavy" then that's not the system for me. I find amps have trouble producing a full mid range with weight in it. I've only heard a few amps that do convincingly deliver that real life weight. Bass can come across as muddy in many systems I've heard usually due to poor rooms.

That's about it.


An aside: I have had experience with blind tests and level matched tests and some people put a lot of trust in it which is great for them! For me, having seen the result of the tests - which usually comes to being "you guessed about random", I realized, the gear I listened to that sounded better still did sound better to me after these tests. They certainly didn't make the good sounding gear sound worse or the worse sounding gear sound better.
So you can guess what I did after that.
I would like to point out the null or "no better than random" result in DBT tends to be subject to all kinds of questionable intepretations which usually circle around "proof of no audible difference". It doesn't mean that.
 
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Frank Dernie

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An aside: I have had experience with blind tests and level matched tests and some people put a lot of trust in it which is great for them! For me, having seen the result of the tests - which usually comes to being "you guessed about random", I realized, the gear I listened to that sounded better still did sound better to me after these tests. They certainly didn't make the good sounding gear sound worse or the worse sounding gear sound better.
So you can guess what I did after that.
I would like to point out the null or "no better than random" result in DBT tends to be subject to all kinds of questionable intepretations which usually circle around "proof of no audible difference". It doesn't mean that.
Looks to me like almost any of the plethora of other hifi web sites would suit your "philosophy" somewhat better than this one!
 

garbulky

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Looks to me like almost any of the plethora of other hifi web sites would suit your "philosophy" somewhat better than this one!
Yes, there are other sites that are a bit closer to how I see things. I'm on some of them as well. I'm not anti-science. I enjoy measurements and the like.
 

Frank Dernie

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Yes, there are other sites that are a bit closer to how I see things. I'm on some of them as well. I'm not anti-science. I enjoy measurements and the like.
I am on HiFi Wigwam, Pink Fish and HiFi abattoir which are UK sites.
I tried one called something like "Whats best" which was absolutely ridiculous and I am afraid Computer Audiophile is now somewhere I no longer bother to visit. Head-Fi seems to have gone off the rails too over the years but I don't use headphones much any more, so another one I don't bother with.
Here is the place which most closely agrees with my 50 years experience of using hifi to listen to music.
 

RayDunzl

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I tried one called something like "Whats best" which was absolutely ridiculous

Amir was co-founder of What's Best Forum.

upload_2018-3-14_14-28-40.png
 

RayDunzl

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Frank Dernie

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Ah well I see that he still is!

Ah, I didn't realize he managed multiple forums. Do you know if that forum is more or less uh "sciencey"?
It seems he got banned from his own forum when he wrote calm well reasoned posts contradicting some of the more ridiculous excess it descended to.
I am most grateful he started this one.
 

RayDunzl

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Fitzcaraldo215

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Ah well I see that he still is!

Ah, I didn't realize he managed multiple forums. Do you know if that forum is more or less uh "sciencey"?
If you like reading about vinyl, reel to reel, bee's wax power fuses, pricey power cords and other expensive cables, carbon fiber wall plates for your AC outlets, tubes, phony grounding boxes loaded with cow manure, and uncontrolled, sighted, subjective opinions galore about only the most expensive speakers and everything else, you will love WBF. It is priceless!

But, I sense that it is slowly dying in terms of posting frequency and general interest. Sad. What a shame!
 

Blumlein 88

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If you like reading about vinyl, reel to reel, bee's wax power fuses, pricey power cords and other expensive cables, carbon fiber wall plates for your AC outlets, tubes, phony grounding boxes loaded with cow manure, and uncontrolled, sighted, subjective opinions galore about only the most expensive speakers and everything else, you will love WBF. It is priceless!

But, I sense that it is slowly dying in terms of posting frequency and general interest. Sad. What a shame!

I sense you may be shedding crocodile tears at that demise. ;)
 

March Audio

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I'm surprised that a lot of people's philosophy seems to be somewhat similar to mine in what they are looking for in an audio system. And that is....how does it sound?

As some of you know, I'm pretty subjective in the way I approach audio. Having first admitted all the faults of the wonderful device that is the ear and the brain in subjective listening like short term memory, subjective bias, fooling oneself, not as sensitive in some regions as one may think.... I put extreme faith in what I hear as being the principle guide. This means I do trust what I hear. I do trust what I remember. And I find it counter productive when people tell me that I shouldn't be hearing what I'm hearing. How did they know?! I certainly didn't tell them! :D

For me, the subjective approach is important and though we do hear differently and we do place different emphasis on things that we like, I do not think that we are all so vastly different from each other that we have tremendously different types of experiences. But regardless, it comes down to does this sound good to you. And if it does, pursue that. Because if all the theory in the world can't tell you what you are going to like and it is absolutely the only measure that matters.

Anyway, I am a fan of room treatments, they providing some of the best value for money I've spent. I am also a fan for purist two channel. I decided a long time ago I would rather have the best two channel setup I could have than a decent multichannel for the same amount of money. Once I reach my satisfaction with two channel, I may switch towards adding on multichannel.
So being that way, it means I like dual mono stuff or monoblocks. I like torroids, class A, balanced architecture etc. Not really concerned about cables though I do have thick ones. I also like the way dual subwoofers sound.

Having played acoustic instruments since I was young, I found that I gravitate to hearing acoustic instruments played in an acoustic space. Though close miking still tends to happen a lot due to recording limitations, I really do prefer to hear the space of the recording and the instruments placed within it. My priorities have been three main things.
1. Soundstage and reproduction of room ambience and space.
2. Detail in microdynamics.
3. Tone.

1. Soundstage - where I find things lacking is a seamless left to right integration. The sound has to come towards you but also go behind the plane of the speakers as well. Good reproduction of room space. I've only heard this in very few setups. This is the ability to place the room of the recording in your room. Not an easy task.

2. Detail in microdynamics can really push a system to be revealing. Microdynamics is a reflection of the speed of a system and this is how you can integrate very quick sounds which normally would collapse in to a broad musical mush. Microdynamics allow individual performers to express themselves and make things more realistic.

3. Tone is usually where things tend to fall down for me in a setup where other things may be done admirably. if it doesn't sound like real instruments - especially in the mids and treble, then it doesn't sound right to me. If a violin, guitar or piano sounds too "treble heavy" then that's not the system for me. I find amps have trouble producing a full mid range with weight in it. I've only heard a few amps that do convincingly deliver that real life weight. Bass can come across as muddy in many systems I've heard usually due to poor rooms.

That's about it.


An aside: I have had experience with blind tests and level matched tests and some people put a lot of trust in it which is great for them! For me, having seen the result of the tests - which usually comes to being "you guessed about random", I realized, the gear I listened to that sounded better still did sound better to me after these tests. They certainly didn't make the good sounding gear sound worse or the worse sounding gear sound better.
So you can guess what I did after that.
I would like to point out the null or "no better than random" result in DBT tends to be subject to all kinds of questionable intepretations which usually circle around "proof of no audible difference". It doesn't mean that.

I have never come across well measuring gear that sounds bad, quite the opposite in fact. However I have come across lots of gear that when some controls are put in place sound no or very little or insignificantly different.

Without controls you kid yourself about the magnitude of differences. The truth is that "what you like" is often not borne of reality which is precisely why controlled tests often come out as showing that, if there is a difference, it is too small for people to reliably detect.

My hifi philosophy is dont get drawn into hifi BS snake oil and marketing. I dont trust others subjective judgement and Im very cautious about my own. Audio reproduction electronics is engineering. An individuals personal preferences, guided by whatever reasoning, influences and bias, are their own and meaningless beyond their world. Engineering provides a genuine basis for comparison and evaluation. I see some classic audiophile comments above which dont actually reflect the engineering reality, such as microdynamics being related to system speed.
 
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garbulky

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Without controls you kid yourself about the magnitude of differences. The truth is that "what you like" is often not borne of reality which is precisely why controlled tests often come out as showing that, if there is a difference it is too small for people to reliably detect.
You should read my second paragraph again about people making assumptions and telling me what I heard.

It seems like you won't stop interjecting condescension every time I seem to speak about things like this. I've heard it before. I get it. I tried to be polite at first. But it gets tiring. You don't see me nit picking your posts do you?Do me the same courtesy please.

This thread is called "your audio philosophy". If you don't like my audio philosophy, move on. Do your audio philosophy, but keep me out of it.
 

Cosmik

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I have never come across well measuring gear that sounds bad
I bet I could make some gear that measured well but sounded bad. I would just need to know what your tests were missing and exploit that; the implication being that although a normal designer wouldn't do it deliberately, they might do it inadvertently.

I have certainly heard DSP demonstrations that have been set up using auto-calibration systems (so by someone's definition they "measure well") but listeners agreed sounded appalling.
 

Wombat

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Garbulky.
"Assumptions, interjecting condecension every time, heard it before, nitpicking, do what I do, move on". Wow, what a collection of emotional comments.

Subjective beliefs are not universal. Ordinary mortals are susceptible to questionable beliefs - why shouldn't they be examined?

If one puts personal subjective(or objective} views here then a response can be expected.

That is not to say you are not entitled to them but once you publish them on this forum you have made them open to comment. That's how it is. Umbrage is not a credible response even if it makes one feel better.o_O

P.S. I am not my audio system and my audio system is not me.
 
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