What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

[ErVikingo]

Not sure why there has to be only one solution for the future. Some technologies like Syn Fuels are most likely a transition solution but they could be helpful especially if it uses up some excess mid day solar capacity, which I see as one of the biggest challenges for the green transition. If every solar farm has to sell at negative rates for 2-3 hours per day that only leaves a fraction of their production to over come their losses and try to make a profit. While predicting the future is difficult to me it is a safe bet that all this 80% EV by 2030 talk is not going to pan out if for no other reason than consumer demand.... many consumers are not interested in EV's as they don't fit their needs.

I was involved in a solar thermal plant. Interesting technology as it provides solar during evenings. Very basic technology but very expensive to implement. In the USA there is at least one plant that was mothballed since the cost per MWh ended up being 3 to 4x the cost of generation with gas.

There is also the concern of impacts to wildlife (birds) that would get in the way of the concentrated solar rays. Proper operation of servos and software is critical.

For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_thermal_power_stations

 

[Marc v E]

Good news on the reusability of windmill blades after they are end of life.

Tech institute TNO has developed 2 ways of recycling: chemical treatment of the compound (usually glasfiber) or heating it until the fibers can be seperated from the resin. Both methods result in small beads that can be reused in, for example, the car industry. TNO has 4 years until a large batch of windmills needs to be recycled; they want to use that time to refine their methods and ultimately decide on which is best.

Siemens Gamesa, one of the largest producers of windmills is taking care of the next step. It has developed a new composite that can be easily recycled in resin and fiberglass when it's end of life.

Many smaller sized windmills that are being replaced by bigger ones, are being moved from Western Europe to Romania and Ireland to get a second life.

Windturbines: van afvalnachtmerrie tot circulaire stroommolen

De landen rond de Noordzee willen 15.000 tot 20.000 gigantische windturbines in zee plaatsen tot het jaar 2050. De wieken daarvan leveren dertig jaar later 300 miljoen kilo kunststofafval op. Gelukkig hoeven we dat dan niet meer onder de grond te stoppen. Windturbines worden circulair.

www.trouw.nl

 

[Timcognito]

If every solar farm has to sell at negative rates for 2-3 hours per day that only leaves a fraction of their production to over come their losses and try to make a profit.

Come on, they get it for free and have very low transpotation cost as it goes on the grid. So you don't think that steel plants, frozen food packers and other energy intensive industries won't want low cost power to run their furnaces and flash freezers and such even if not at 100% of usage. The cost of fossil fuels is high and with battery tech improvements and efficiency (LEDs and heat pumps etc.), personal transportation and home energy use is nearly solved. Large scale storage and grid size and capicity will be the challenges for the for the all electric future

 

[monkeyboy]

Since this thread is essentially about novel ways to burn stacks of money....

Massive Gravity Batteries In Final Stages Of Completion In US And China

As a solution to the unreliable nature of renewable energy sources such as solar and wind power, a Swiss startup called Energy Vault is nearing the...

www.ubergizmo.com

 

[levimax]

Come on, they get it for free and have very low transpotation cost as it goes on the grid. So you don't think that steel plants, frozen food packers and other energy intensive industries won't want low cost power to run their furnaces and flash freezers and such even if not at 100% of usage. The cost of fossil fuels is high and with battery tech improvements and efficiency (LEDs and heat pumps etc.), personal transportation and home energy use is nearly solved. Large scale storage and grid size and capicity will be the challenges for the for the all electric future

Currently it is a worldwide trend that wholesale electric rates go negative at mid day and this seems to be accelerating. This is as expected as if you subsidize something you get more of it whether needed or not. As you say large scale storage is the problem that needs to be solved but currently the technology does not exist. Until then I don't see a solution to excess solar power.... it's not like the industrial users you mention can store the power for later .... there is just too much power being generated for several hours every day and then quickly it becomes a power shortage a few hours later.

 

[levimax]

Since this thread is essentially about novel ways to burn stacks of money....

Massive Gravity Batteries In Final Stages Of Completion In US And China

As a solution to the unreliable nature of renewable energy sources such as solar and wind power, a Swiss startup called Energy Vault is nearing the...

www.ubergizmo.com

Makes sense to me, I was thinking about pumping water uphill during during that day and then letting it run water turbines at night but this seems easier. Not sure how they get such high efficiencies but if you are getting mid day power cheap or being paid for it you don't need 90% efficiency to make money.

 

[Bob Olhsson]

The REAL solution will be replacing our 100 year old AC grids with DC grids that don't lose 90% of the transmitted power in transformers. The only reason it hasn't happened is that the switch to mostly hydro would wipe out the oil and coal industries. This is already being done in parts of Europe.

 

[SIY]

The REAL solution will be replacing our 100 year old AC grids with DC grids that don't lose 90% of the transmitted power in transformers. The only reason it hasn't happened is that the switch to mostly hydro would wipe out the oil and coal industries. This is already being done in parts of Europe.

No, then they lose it in IR drops.

 

[ErVikingo]

Makes sense to me, I was thinking about pumping water uphill during during that day and then letting it run water turbines at night but this seems easier. Not sure how they get such high efficiencies but if you are getting mid day power cheap or being paid for it you don't need 90% efficiency to make money.

Various like that in operation already.....

 

[Timcognito]

Makes sense to me, I was thinking about pumping water uphill during during that day and then letting it run water turbines at night but this seems easier.

Not in Iowa or Kansas but great in California especially if the water is used again and again and not destined for some other use.

 

[monkeyboy]

"...grids that don't lose 90% of the transmitted power in transformers"...what????...that's impossible...90% of the transmission loss may be in the transformer...I;m pretty sure the 1000 kW combined cycle delivers more than 100 kW to end users....

 

[Bob Olhsson]

It's lots more than just one transformer!

 

[RayDunzl]

BonziBuddy2023 says 6 to 7 percent is lost in transmission from power plant to end user per the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).

 

[RayDunzl]

I have a transformer, can't say I've noticed much loss, it doesn't even become appreciably warm, and my initial thought is since it is nested between the power amps and under the preamp (hungry little devil that it is) the main heat is being radiated from the other units.

The pre is about 90 F, the isolation transformer 85 F, and the room 80 F.

The big one on the ground outside feeding several houses, is not scorching hot, either.

I'm 98 F last time I looked, but I make no personal efficiency claims.

 

[monkeyboy]

The transformers are not losing a large fraction of the generated energy....a typical 450,000 kVA rated transformer operating at 255,170 kW with a 0.85 PF has a 50 kW core loss and about 735 kW I^2R loss...taken from a recent plant design that is currently in operation....

 

[blueone]

The REAL solution will be replacing our 100 year old AC grids with DC grids that don't lose 90% of the transmitted power in transformers. The only reason it hasn't happened is that the switch to mostly hydro would wipe out the oil and coal industries. This is already being done in parts of Europe.

Nonsense. Modern large power transformers are in the range of 98% efficient. The typical 30-40 yo transformers in the grid are somewhat less efficient, but nothing like 10% efficient. If you are correct, the 1.2TW US electrical grid would require 12TW of generation capacity to deliver 1.2TW. That doesn't work. My spouse used to work in DoE power administrations, so I would hear about grid issues over dinner a lot. Not that greater efficiency can't be achieved, and the DoE is trying to mandate it, but there's a lot of questions about how cost effective further improvements are.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2022-12/dt-ecs-nopr.pdf

 

[Bob Olhsson]

I'll run this by my friend who told me about this.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'll run this by my friend who told me about this.

Think maybe you heard it backwards? Like they only transmit 90%. Could be right for some older ones.

 

[Willem]

I fail to understand the scepticism that some here seem to show. The danger of climate change is real, urgent, and the causes are scientifically clear. We do not need new research to find out the cost of doing nothing. That research already exists and doing nothing will be frightfully more expensive.
We have four major clean sources of energy:
1 Wind
2 Solar (both pv and solar hot water boilers).
3 Hydroelectric
4 Nuclear
All of these are proven technologies, and all of them suffer from variability issues, but in combination those issues are far less.
Their advantages and disadvantages will differ from one country to another, but by now all of them can be implemented without subsidies but may need some start up support. They will also need adequate legislation to remove barriers, and a much upgraded grid with long distance connections and hence probably some public intervention (just like road and rail systems). We may also need a hydrogen distribution network, but at least our Dutch natural gas network is technically suitable with only minor changes.
None of this should be beyond the powers of modern western economies. The benefits extend beyond the climate, and include cleaner air and a stimulus to new technology and economic growth.

 

[monkeyboy]

The climate is changing and is always changing...it's not anthropomorphic, it's driven by the sun and orbital mechanics...there is nothing we can do about it so learn to adapt...the absurd amount of money being wasted on this idiocy could be wasted in many more productive ways....