Vincent PHO-8 Phono Stage Review

[amirm]

I have a worn AT cart soldered directly to an RCA male connector as a test input, the hum is greatly reduced.

Versus what configuration?

 

[scott wurcer]

Versus what configuration?

Not sure what you are doing, I meant vs a cart mounted on an arm and TT. I use the cartridge directly as the source impedance this answers the question about input voltage vs current noise by presenting the correct input impedance vs frequency. It is true you can only pick one MM cartridge but it is much better than a shorted input which gives overly optimistic numbers for MM.

If you get that much hum on a shorted input, I would be a little surprised. I use a battery powered phono and without the TT connected there is virtually no hum.

 

[Frank Dernie]

1) There is really no excuse for gross FR errors. Even at this low end price. Unless it is deliberate--a 'voicing' to make the thing sound different.

Yes, true, but this is not "gross" compared to the typical FR of any cartridge which will be used with it and in actual use the FR will maybe have >12dB peak between 10 and 25 Hz due to the unforgivably stupid absence of a high pass filter.

 

[anmpr1]

Yes, true, but this is not "gross" compared to the typical FR of any cartridge which will be used with it and in actual use the FR will maybe have >12dB peak between 10 and 25 Hz due to the unforgivably stupid absence of a high pass filter.

Yes. As has been duly noted cartridges are a FR box of chocolates. Coupled with a phono input, time of day and weather, and you never know what you are going to get.

I have a V15xV cartridge body. You can't get styli from Shure for them anymore, so I installed an M97Xe stylus. The stylus fits the body, but according to Shure FAQ the output is slightly increased and HF rolls off to a degree not present in the original. The on-line marketplace has a few sellers listing NOS V15xMR styli for $600.00. I wish them luck selling at that price. JICO (Japan) makes replacements for much less, but I have no experience with them.

 

[sergeauckland]

Yes. As has been duly noted cartridges are a FR box of chocolates. Coupled with a phono input, time of day and weather, and you never know what you are going to get.

I have a V15xV cartridge body. You can't get styli from Shure for them anymore, so I installed an M97Xe stylus. The stylus fits the body, but according to Shure FAQ the output is slightly increased and HF rolls off to a degree not present in the original. The on-line marketplace has a few sellers listing NOS V15xMR styli for $600.00. I wish them luck selling at that price. JICO (Japan) makes replacements for much less, but I have no experience with them.

I have a V15 VMR body, for which I've bought a Jico SAS stylus. Works very well, albeit not in daily use. I can't comment on Jico's non-SAS stylus, but the SAS is superb.

S.

 

[P_M]

Thanks for the review!
Shockingly high power line frequency. So much for an outboard hefty power supply, huh ?
Also surprised at the rising noise floor below 500hz. Wonder what that is about ?

FR irregularity is wide enough to have an impact on tonal signature. Perhaps the slight emphasis in the low-mid band is probably what people like about this pre.

 

[amirm]

Shockingly high power line frequency. So much for an outboard hefty power supply, huh ?
Also surprised at the rising noise floor below 500hz. Wonder what that is about ?

Because of RIAA equalization curve, that sloping down response is typical. And since I am using an analyzer as the source rather than a floating cartridge, mains hum can creep in when it may not be the same in use. Then again, it may be worse in that regard. Such is the situation with this broken audio architecture we have.

 

[P_M]

that brings up a question I hadn't thought of before - when you test phono preamps, what do you connect the ground terminal to ?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I would love to see some S/N and distortion measurements from an actual vinyl rig playing an actual test LP.

Why would you want to look at anything that ugly.

 

[sergeauckland]

Why would you want to look at anything that ugly.

Because it's of interest to those of us more interested in the music than the equipment it's played on.

S

 

[Soniclife]

Because it's of interest to those of us more interested in the music than the equipment it's played on.

S

It's also educational in how something that would look broken can still sound great, shows how much our ears don't hear, and our brains fix.

 

[cgallery]

I wonder if the curve on this thing is fixable via component replacement.

Not that I think I'd be able to hear it w/o jumping through hoops, honestly. But so close, I wonder if it can be made closer.

Also betting on the Realistic 42-210x units are measured, I'm going to be surprised by how poorly it measures, and I love the sound of the thing.

 

[amirm]

that brings up a question I hadn't thought of before - when you test phono preamps, what do you connect the ground terminal to ?

I experiment with connecting it to chassis of my analyzer, either end of rca cables etc. My analyzer has floating input so usually works best without grounding.

 

[P_M]

Recently I was looking into the fact of how cartridge inductance has an impact on noise output from the preamp, and I am beginning to think do we need a simulated cartridge circuit like the simulated speaker load circuit to get measurements that reflect real world performance ?
It is a common experience that the same cartridge or preamp may result in much lower/higher noise (no signal hiss) if paired with another cartridge/preamp and the cause is the interaction of the cartridge's inductance with the preamp's input impedance and capacitance.

 

[Harold]

I find it curious that in all the many reviews, threads and comments across the web devoted to the Vincent PHO8 over many years, I can’t recall anyone commenting on the unit’s poor frequency response at the high end. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t such a dramatic upward curve towards 20 kHz in the FR be perceived as brightness or harshness in the treble? I am not questioning or disputing your findings or trying to be argumentative in any way but I would like to understand why something so apparent in your measurements has gone without notice or comment by so many people. Thanks.

 

[bigx5murf]

I find it curious that in all the many reviews, threads and comments across the web devoted to the Vincent PHO8 over many years, I can’t recall anyone commenting on the unit’s poor frequency response at the high end. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t such a dramatic upward curve towards 20 kHz in the FR be perceived as brightness or harshness in the treble? I am not questioning or disputing your findings or trying to be argumentative in any way but I would like to understand why something so apparent in your measurements has gone without notice or comment by so many people. Thanks.

Most recorded music has very little information over 10kHz, and practically nothing over 15kHz. Use a spectrum visualization plugin, and play music to see for yourself. What info there is up there is also very low amplitude.

 

[P_M]

Harold makes a good point. Initially I also ignored it thinking that its only 0.5 to 1db higher. But then I noticed how it keeps rising above 20khz into the 30-40Khz range also. Thats not good for a high gain amp. I'd expect it to roll of and fall above 20khz. Not sure if its a property of the amp or a test anamoly or a defective unit but I'd consider it an undesirable.

 

[EJ3]

Yes. As has been duly noted cartridges are a FR box of chocolates. Coupled with a phono input, time of day and weather, and you never know what you are going to get.

I have a V15xV cartridge body. You can't get styli from SHURE for them anymore, so I installed an M97Xe stylus. The stylus fits the body, but according to SHURE FAQ the output is slightly increased and HF rolls off to a degree not present in the original. The on-line marketplace has a few sellers listing NOS V15xMR styli for $600.00. I wish them luck selling at that price. JICO (Japan) makes replacements for much less, but I have no experience with them.

I have very low hour originals of anything that had a beryllium shank (I put the hours on them myself). And also JICO (SAS's) for my various SHURE V15V based bodies including the P mounts (including the ULTRA series). The JICO's are somewhat different (but very close) yet in the same league. Of course, even among the JICO SAS's there is a tier of lesser & better (or just different). When possible I use the styli assembly with a brush on the P-Mounts and adjust the tracking force and anti-skate appropriately. I personally like any JICO (SAS) that fits the V15xV better than the M97Xe. You may have a different preference.
My TT's are a fully refurbished DUAL 1229 with an AMERICAN walnut plinth & stock arm and a 100% original TECHNICS SL-M3 (1984-88 computer servo controlled linear tracking P-Mount).

 

[anmpr1]

Of course, even among the JICO SAS's there is a tier of lesser & better (or just different).

Like Alice's diner, it appears you can get anything you want at Jico. I see they are offering wood cantilevers. That's a new one on me. Is the Jico stylus assembly brush damped? Or is it just hinged and weighted like the old Stanton/Pickering brush? Their prices appear reasonable.

It's a shame that Shure and Stanton were not able to make any money selling cartridges. Grado is the last of the US cartridge makers as far as I know.

 

[EJ3]

It is damped but not as strongly as the SHURE's were. So there is a different amount of tracking force setting change than you would have done with the SHURE. They come with their spec, so you know how to compensate. It is ever changing & evolving with the cantilevers. As to GRADO, they are also in the minority of cartridge companies that still make a T4P (more commonly known as a P-Mount). And it is a pretty good one. There have been many rumors (perhaps some truths in certain setups) about GRADO having incompatibility with direct drive TT's (particularly the TECHNICS SL 1200's & variants) My SL-M3 is a variant using this direct drive. I, fortunately, have not had this negative experience with GRADO cartridges (your mileage may vary), which, in my case, would be the T4P or P-Mount cartridge. Not all P-Mount cartridges are made to the T4P specs, however. And if there is no way to adjust your tracking and anti-skate settings you will be more likely to run into some issues. Should you be using a T4P mount be sure to check the cartridge specification against the T4P spec. And that you have enough adjust-ability to compensate if the cartridge doesn't meet the spec.