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Very Nice Cheap Kit Speakers: HiVi/Swans DIY 2.2A & 3.1
- Thread starter GGroch
- Start date
I've decided to go through the data Scott Sehlin posted on the 3.1's years ago. I want to create an EQ alternative to his crossover changes that creates a flat on-axis response and is not room dependent. To do this, I merged his nearfield data with a box simulation accurate enough for our purposes.
I would argue that the crossover is well enough designed, it's just wrong. The resistances are silly and the tuning is extremely bright. We all know this, we've all seen it, it's been discussed to death. Here's my simulation, done similarly to Scott's, but in VCAD.
It's bright.
And if I throw in the estimated driver separation, our phase looks pretty great, I must say.
There are all sorts of variations, highlighted in green (but not run through the optimizer) that Scott made to the original crossover with incremental improvement.
However, I'm sure the stock crossover can support equalization for tone. Starting with the stock crossover, I have a 6-band PEQ that can flatten the tone, and a 5-band PEQ that will tilt it for an extremely high preference score without a sub, for a total of 11 bands. It would make sense to ignore the 128hz EQ and simply correct for your room below 500hz, especially since the data here is simulated. I have previously shared my REW data and in-room response. This bookshelf can play 40hz in-room very well and very loudly. I am constantly impressed by this woofer.
A very worthwhile investment for the speaker quality. My old REW distortion measurements were at -60dB even as high as 110dB SPL in-room. I haven't seen a better deal in audio. JBL LSR-308's sound better at low volumes, but can't touch the SPL levels these reach. Dynamics are fabulous. Mine pull double duty as home theater mains and my main listening stereo. I keep thinking of bass boxes as stands and I'm nearly settled on the SB29NRX75-6 in series. With a bit of boost they hit 20hz no problem.
I would argue that the crossover is well enough designed, it's just wrong. The resistances are silly and the tuning is extremely bright. We all know this, we've all seen it, it's been discussed to death. Here's my simulation, done similarly to Scott's, but in VCAD.
It's bright.
And if I throw in the estimated driver separation, our phase looks pretty great, I must say.
There are all sorts of variations, highlighted in green (but not run through the optimizer) that Scott made to the original crossover with incremental improvement.
However, I'm sure the stock crossover can support equalization for tone. Starting with the stock crossover, I have a 6-band PEQ that can flatten the tone, and a 5-band PEQ that will tilt it for an extremely high preference score without a sub, for a total of 11 bands. It would make sense to ignore the 128hz EQ and simply correct for your room below 500hz, especially since the data here is simulated. I have previously shared my REW data and in-room response. This bookshelf can play 40hz in-room very well and very loudly. I am constantly impressed by this woofer.
A very worthwhile investment for the speaker quality. My old REW distortion measurements were at -60dB even as high as 110dB SPL in-room. I haven't seen a better deal in audio. JBL LSR-308's sound better at low volumes, but can't touch the SPL levels these reach. Dynamics are fabulous. Mine pull double duty as home theater mains and my main listening stereo. I keep thinking of bass boxes as stands and I'm nearly settled on the SB29NRX75-6 in series. With a bit of boost they hit 20hz no problem.
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finally the measurements are completed.Welcome to ASR!
Look forward to seeing your measurements.
tools list:
-motu m4
-aiyima a07
-smsl a300
-isemcon EMX-7150
measurement are taken in room with room eq, woofer and port nearfield measurement.
stock crossover:
definitive crossover:
10ohm resistors on the woofer are 20w, the 10 ohm resistor on the tweeter is 5w;
on the woofer use a 0.8mH inductor (jantzen ferrite core 0,8mH - 1,0mm, 0,182ohm rdc) less resistance is better.
Lastly a crossover based on the original one but it has not been tested or measured.
Regarding the THD you can give 18v to the tweeter without any particular distortion, and more than 22v on the woofer.
These are the changes made to the cabinet:
6mm chamfering on the baffle
2mm CTK bitomous dampening material
CTK CaiMat 8 500x400mm
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Poultrygeist
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Four years have past since I built the Swan HiVi 2.2's and I'm still as impressed as ever. I doubt any kit speaker comes close for their price. The box they came in was so heavy it took hand trucks to get them into my garage. I've built several kit speakers but none used 3/4" MDF and came with quality components. I currently power them with a Fosi ZA3 using a Wiim mini streaming into an Audio GD DAC/Pre.
Poultrygeist
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #127
HiVi-Swan's U.S. Importer has just listed on Amazon an interesting 6.5" passive two way FINISHED speaker the D3.1 MKII that appears to be an update of the no longer sold DIY 2.2. Or perhaps, an update of the Swans D2.1SE finished speaker on which the DIY 2.2 seems to have been based. Woofer and Tweeter appear quite similar, to the 2.2, the weight is close to the same, the D3.1 MKII is an inch or so taller and deeper. At $550 a pair it is twice the price of the DIY 2.2, but the D2.1SE sold for $1000 in 2008, so perhap
s a bargain. Pretty I think. perhaps it is a deal.
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Poultrygeist
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One of the most enjoyable aspects of kit speakers is the pride one gains in building it yourself. I grew up in a different generation when building model airplanes was a big deal. With the current need for instant gratification fewer seem interested in the patience required for DIY.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #129
I totally agree. But DIY speakers are in any case an oddity.
On one hand, from the manufacturer's perspective my guess is the cost of configuring, manufacturing, shipping full flat pack kit speakers is nearly equal to that of assembling and shipping finished speakers. This is particularly true when you consider the higher likelihood of mistakes, failures, returns on the buyers part. The particularly low cost of the two HiVi kits makes them remarkable in this respect.
From the buyer's perspective; pride, the ability to tweak X-overs and create bespoke finishes makes it tremendously rewarding. When I started this thread in 2019 I was not quite so aware of how much expectation bias impacts hearing. Just like the rituals required to play LP records necessarily sharpens focus and appreciation, the process of building DIY speakers almost guarantees that they will sound even better to the proud owner than they objectively measure.
Still the D3.1 MKII referenced above is an interesting speaker. I can find no reference to this model anywhere besides the just posted Amazon listing, and competitive 6.5" 2-ways of this build quality (ie, cast woofers, 23 lb ea weight) seem to start around $700-900 a pair.
I thought I would take a moment to thank GGroch and Poultrygeist as it was their early reviews that prompted me to go with the Hivi 2.2a kit, which, in general. I have been very happy with. I mod'ed the X-over to the Swans D2.1SE values and finished them in gloss white, but as anyone that has built these knows, they are LARGE,...and heavy. I can't imagine a table or desk where they would be a good fit and for a shelf location, forget it.
In my small listening space on commercial stands, they are a bit overwhelming.
I briefly thought about reducing their internal volume w/ smaller cab.s, but decided against it, so I thought if I couldn't make them smaller, I could at least make them seem smaller. So to that end I gutted the box's with the intent of putting large round-overs on and painting them a darker color.
Well, as this is the type of project I tend to procrastinate on, they sat around and I started to miss them, so as a temporary measure, I purchased a PR. of Parts Express's BR-1 enclosures for $100;
Dayton Audio BR-1CAB BR-1 6-1/2" 2-Way Speaker Cabinet Pair
Dayton Audio BR-1CAB BR-1 6-1/2" 2-Way Speaker Cabinet PairDayton Audio BR-1 Cabinet pair. 6-1/2" 2-Way cut-outs. The cabinets are made of 5/8" MDF finished in an unobtrusive "black ash" vinyl laminate and include grills with black cloth, ports, and binding post terminal cups. All driver holes...
www.parts-express.com
Although they are only slightly smaller and lighter than than the Hivi Swans, they have a nice quality dark ash vinyl covering and are 3 inches less deep giving the boxes a ratio, that for some reason, is more pleasing to my eye.
Now I'm not suggesting DIY 2.2a owners change their enclosures for aesthetic reasons, but in the oft chance they are building a PR. from scratch, or, like me, are not happy with their attempt at finishing, these are a very nice inexpensive option.
They are very solid while not being over-built like the tank-like Hivi Swans enclosures and overall have a quality look and feel.
The grills wouldn't fit, but I always go for the no-grill look anyway.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #131
A mystery solved. Three days ago the Swan D3.1 mkii (DIY 2.2a clone) I mentioned above on Amazon suddenly went from 11 in stock (seemingly never selling at all) to sold out/no longer available in about 6 hours.
The reason: Z-Reviewed them, describing them as the best bookshelf he's ever heard, better than Buchardts. Link.
I am not a Z-fan (he seems overly enthusiastic about most products) but the power of influencers who get paid both on clicks and referral links is impressive. I expect if Swan's importer can get more here through the tariff quagmire they will sell well.
Last week I finally finished building my DIY 3.1A s (perfectionist crossover mod). They are very nice indeed, but to my taste, and in my room, the 2.2a sounds better.
The 2 ways seem more coherent with significantly better bass definition. There is a sweet airiness to the DIY 3.1a high end lacking in the 2.2a.
I have more listening to do. and sadly my 70 year old ears should no longer be a factor influencing anyone.
The reason: Z-Reviewed them, describing them as the best bookshelf he's ever heard, better than Buchardts. Link.
I am not a Z-fan (he seems overly enthusiastic about most products) but the power of influencers who get paid both on clicks and referral links is impressive. I expect if Swan's importer can get more here through the tariff quagmire they will sell well.
Last week I finally finished building my DIY 3.1A s (perfectionist crossover mod). They are very nice indeed, but to my taste, and in my room, the 2.2a sounds better.
The 2 ways seem more coherent with significantly better bass definition. There is a sweet airiness to the DIY 3.1a high end lacking in the 2.2a.
I have more listening to do. and sadly my 70 year old ears should no longer be a factor influencing anyone.
Attachments
OP
- Thread Starter
- #132
Another Strangeness from Swans....they are selling the DIY 2.2 empty cabinets for $110 a pair. Good deal if you screwed up your DIY job. Actually, very nice 2 way 6.5" cabinets for the price anyway. While the listing shows them assembled it is likely they are not as Swans Amazon listings are not particularly accurate.
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Poultrygeist
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These heavy cabinets are 3/4" MDF and incredibly strong as I learned recently. One of mine fell from a 4 foot stand onto a concrete garage floor and only suffered minor paint damage. With some light sanding and touch up paint all is well.
I'm new to the forum here and am currently building the HIVI Swan 3.1a's after reading all of the glowing reviews from many different sources. As many others are doing, I am going the the Perfection Mod #4 with the crossovers. My question below concerns the dampening material inside the speaker.
I'm considering using the Parts Express 1/2" sonic barrier in lieu of the 1-1/2" foam included in the kit for sound dampening. Chris Perez, who designed the PE C Note MT Speakers and many others, commented in this forum back in 2020 (discussing the C Note Speaker diy kit) and highly recommended the PE 1/2" sonic barrier over others. It has a self adhesive backing too. I have built (2) Parts Express diy speaker kits (parts only, I built the boxes myself): C Note MT speakers and the Dayton Audio 6-1/2" down firing Mini Subwoofer. Both sound GREAT; the C Notes are amazing for their small size and I used the PE 1/2" sonic barrier in both, lining all of the available wall surfaces per his recommendations.
Thoughts?
I'm considering using the Parts Express 1/2" sonic barrier in lieu of the 1-1/2" foam included in the kit for sound dampening. Chris Perez, who designed the PE C Note MT Speakers and many others, commented in this forum back in 2020 (discussing the C Note Speaker diy kit) and highly recommended the PE 1/2" sonic barrier over others. It has a self adhesive backing too. I have built (2) Parts Express diy speaker kits (parts only, I built the boxes myself): C Note MT speakers and the Dayton Audio 6-1/2" down firing Mini Subwoofer. Both sound GREAT; the C Notes are amazing for their small size and I used the PE 1/2" sonic barrier in both, lining all of the available wall surfaces per his recommendations.
Thoughts?
Yes, I snagged a HIVI Swan 3.1a kit last week when Amazon said 'Only 5 left'...
Congrats on the purchase! I love these speakers.
One point to make about the self adhesive backing. I would prime the MDF surface so the adhesive sticks very well. Bare MDF isn't a good surface for this type of adhesion. I would use a brush on contact cement (2 coats) to the MDF let dry a few minutes and then stick down the foam.
Good luck
One point to make about the self adhesive backing. I would prime the MDF surface so the adhesive sticks very well. Bare MDF isn't a good surface for this type of adhesion. I would use a brush on contact cement (2 coats) to the MDF let dry a few minutes and then stick down the foam.
Good luck
Hey Tinker, thanks for your thoughts, the boxes are built and getting the red oak veneer today. I have used the PE 1/2" self adhesive on several sets of speaker and I guarantee that the stick like glue, very hard to readjust once you get them in place! I learned the hard way but happy with the results.
Did you use the 1 1/2" foam that came with the HIVI Swan 3.1a kit?
Yes. The foam worked fine for me. I added additional stiffness to the box by using 3/8" pre-finished wood flooring glued to the exterior of the cabinet using a soft glue to adhere. (see photo above #126) So the size of my box is slightly larger.
The only complaint I had was how the dome mid-range wasn't fit flush in the cabinet and left a noticble lip sticking out. Could this cause diffraction? I don't know but I didn't like the look of it. So, I fitted felt around the speaker as seen in the photo. I've seen other speaker designers do this so I went with it.
Post photos as you go !! Good luck!
Yeah, I also don't like the mid-range flange sitting mounted on top of the surface (similar to the PE C-Note speakers, which I also modified). I used a hacksaw to carefully cut a radius on tweeter flange and used a router to cut a recess in the mdf for the midrange. Will post photos soon; added a red oak 10mil veneer and in the process of sanding it today.
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