Using a dongle dac to power speakers (no amp)

[amanieux]

Using my moondrop dawn 4.4 usb dongle dac to power my speakers (direcly without an amp) ! Of course this will not work for a living room setup, this works only for near field desktop setups (i am between 1 and 2 feet away). This $60 tiny balanced dongle dac is rated 4v 230mw into 32 ohms, output impedance is 0.5 or 1 ohms. 60% volume is loud enough for near field desktop ( my speakers are b&w cdm2 very typical 8 ohms 87 dB sensitivity). Hifi experts told me to not use headphone amps to power speakers there would be impedance mismatch that would screw up my frequency response but sound is crystal clear with enough bass so do you guys have any comments ? Is there a danger it may burn down my dac for long sessions ? The less elements you have in your audio pipeline, the less sound is screwed up, here i have the minimum number of elements to get sound : $60 usb dac and $70 vintage speakers, great audio for $130 total ( i notice that past 80% sounds does not scale up well , it gets harsh and losses bass but for such near field setup i cannot go over 70% without it being too loud) - attacheded mp4 video just rename .zip in .mp4

 

[ppataki]

How did you manage to connect the + and - speaker wires to the jack output of your DAC?

 

[Philbo King]

Using my moondrop dawn 4.4 usb dongle dac to power my speakers (direcly without an amp) ! Of course this will not work for a living room setup, this works only for near field desktop setups (i am between 1 and 2 feet away). This $60 tiny balanced dongle dac is rated 4v 230mw into 32 ohms, output impedance is 0.5 or 1 ohms. 60% volume is loud enough for near field desktop ( my speakers are b&w cdm2 very typical 8 ohms 87 dB sensitivity). Hifi expertes told me to not use headphone amps to power speakers there would be impedance mismatch that would screw up my frequency response but sound is crystal clear with enough bass so do you guys have any comments ? Is there a danger it may burn down my dac for long sessions ? The less elements you have in your audio pipeline, the less sound is screwed up, here i have the minimum number of elements to get sound : $60 usb dac and $70 vintage speakers, great audio for $130 total ( i notice that past 80% sounds dors not scale up well , it gets harsh and losses bass but for such near field setup i cannot go over 70% without it being too loud)

If it works run with it.
People tend to forget dynamic headphones are just small speakers.

 

[VintageFlanker]

so do you guys have any comments ?

Yes. That the whole idea is nonsense.

The less elements you have in your audio pipeline, the less sound is screwed up, here i have the minimum number of elements to get sound

There's no chance, in any shape shape or form, that your B&W are correctly powered right now, and that the sound is not screwed up. Nor that these speakers are designed to be listened at... 1 foot. (Seriously?! Buy actual headphones!)

 

[amanieux]

Yes. That the whole idea is nonsense.

There's no chance, in any shape shape or form, that your B&W are correctly powered right now, and that the sound is not screwed up. Nor that these speakers are designed to be listened at... 1 foot. (Seriously?! Buy actual headphones!)

When you use headphones or iems you loose crossfeed effect that is critical for imaging and soundstage. And i can assure you that sound is way more detailed 1 feet away , speakers beings 3 feet away from one another slightly towed in ( compared to the typical near field setup that is a 3 feet equilateral triangle, just try it for yourself, see attached photo of my listening configuration showing laptop/speaker distances where i get best soundstage and details), the nearer you are, the lower you can set your volume and the lower are reflections from a untreated room ( about nonesense, it is funny , i often get this reaction, this idea came from the fact that there 2 watts hifi speakers on the market and i notice that i used to set my amp ( aiyima a07) at 5% volume (coming from ifi go link dac at 80% volume)for my near field usage so i just questionned the need for power in my use case ( listening to music from my laptop at my desk)

 

[voodooless]

The less elements you have in your audio pipeline, the less sound is screwed up,

That’s just audiophile nonsense. One wrong component can screw up everything, which in your case, is probably happening.

Measurements of MoonDrop Dawn Micro USB DAC - L7Audiolab

便携设备 还记得在三月初的时候，我发了一篇《今朝蛰户初开 一声雷唤苍龙起》众所周知这是一个无比魔幻的春天。最终只实现了一个梦想……还好，第二个梦想终于在今天也实现了：这就是来自水月雨的晓（ MoonDrop DAWN ) USB解码耳放：

www.l7audiolab.com

It can barely do 100 mW into 16R, at 8R is probably half of that. Distortion wise your also nowhere hear the DAC’s optimum, you probably get around a 90 SINAD before clipping. Still respectable, but with only 50 mW, it’s not going to be enough for speakers: It will get you to about 81 dB peak if your lucky. With about 15 dB crest factor that would mean average volume would be about 65 dB at best.

 

[amanieux]

That’s just audiophile nonsense. One wrong component can screw up everything, which in your case, is probably happening.

Measurements of MoonDrop Dawn Micro USB DAC - L7Audiolab

便携设备 还记得在三月初的时候，我发了一篇《今朝蛰户初开 一声雷唤苍龙起》众所周知这是一个无比魔幻的春天。最终只实现了一个梦想……还好，第二个梦想终于在今天也实现了：这就是来自水月雨的晓（ MoonDrop DAWN ) USB解码耳放：

www.l7audiolab.com

It can barely do 100 mW into 16R, at 8R is probably half of that. Distortion wise your also nowhere hear the DAC’s optimum, you probably get around a 90 SINAD before clipping. Still respectable, but with only 50 mW, it’s not going to be enough for speakers.

See my attached video, sound is cleaner than going through my aiyima a07 ( amp volume is 5% coming from a ifi go link dac at 80% volume) you are right sounds starts distorting above 80% volume on my dac but as i mentionned 1 feet away sound is too loud above 70%

 

[VintageFlanker]

It can barely do 100 mW into 16R, at 8R is probably half of that.

Not to mention these speakers go down below 8R (and also way higher). A dongle can't handle these impedances properly.

 

[amanieux]

That’s just audiophile nonsense. One wrong component can screw up everything, which in your case, is probably happening.

Measurements of MoonDrop Dawn Micro USB DAC - L7Audiolab

便携设备 还记得在三月初的时候，我发了一篇《今朝蛰户初开 一声雷唤苍龙起》众所周知这是一个无比魔幻的春天。最终只实现了一个梦想……还好，第二个梦想终于在今天也实现了：这就是来自水月雨的晓（ MoonDrop DAWN ) USB解码耳放：

www.l7audiolab.com

It can barely do 100 mW into 16R, at 8R is probably half of that. Distortion wise your also nowhere hear the DAC’s optimum, you probably get around a 90 SINAD before clipping. Still respectable, but with only 50 mW, it’s not going to be enough for speakers: It will get you to about 81 dB peak if your lucky. With about 15 dB crest factor that would mean average volume would be about 65 dB at best.

From l7audiolab i see it only reaches 4v with 300 ohms but there is a 2v-4v manual switch from the moondrop android app and i notice sounds gets noticeably louder in my 32 ohms iem when i use this 2v-4v switch ( test on my speakers was done with the 4v switch on) - i was the first to be surprised when i head sound being loud and clear (and with bass) at 60% volume on this tiny dac so i am not trying to convince others to ditch their amps but i want to understand why it works . Sound from video is bad because it was recorded from my phone, if i can get my hands on a decent mic i will post sound straight from dac vs going through an amp at matching loudness. sound is cleaner and more dynamic straight from the dac ( very surprising)

 

[voodooless]

From l7audiolab i see it only reaches 4v with 300 ohms but there is a 2v-4v manual switch from the moondrop android app and i notice sounds gets noticeably louder in my 32 ohms iem when i use this 2v-4v switch ( test on my speakers was done with the 4v switch on) - i was the first to be surprised when i head sound being loud and clear (and with bass) at 60% volume on this tiny dac so i am not trying to convince others to ditch their amps but i want to understand why it works . Sound from video is bad because it was recorded from my phone, if i can get my hands on a decent mic i will post sound straight from dac vs going through an amp at matching loudness. sound is cleaner and more dynamic straight from the dac ( very surprising)

The voltage is largely irrelevant because you need current to drive speakers. You'll never reach anywhere near the max voltage with speakers, you'll be clipping long before that. Obviously, it gets louder if you flip the switch, because you change the gain.

 

[amanieux]

The voltage is largely irrelevant because you need current to drive speakers. You'll never reach anywhere near the max voltage with speakers, you'll be clipping long before that. Obviously, it gets louder if you flip the switch, because you change the gain.

Ok get it, i am on high gain but voltage remains low, thanks. As i said i was the first surprised to hear how clean and usable the sound was, my concern is for the lifespan of my dongle dac if i keep using it this unconventional way ( at 60% volume it remains cold to the touch after 3 minutes long test, i did not dare listening longer before understanding if i can burn it down

 

[amanieux]

How did you manage to connect the + and - speaker wires to the jack output of your DAC?

See the video(download attached zip and rename to.mp4), i unplugged my iem 2 pin and just connect my speaker wires on the 2 pin connector holding it with tape for the 3 minutes long test. if i get confident i will not burn down my dac i will buy a 4.4 male jack for $3 on aliexpress and solder my speakers wires directly on the 4.4mm jack

 

[amanieux]

I would like to be surprised as well, if ever I could extract a video from your zip...

Also, post a FR graph at "1-2 feet" as you say you listen, it will be significant.

Do not uncompress the zip, rename it to mp4 without using a zip decompressor, i had to use this trick because .mp4 cannot be attached, sound fron phone is bad because it is a phone but you can hear how loud it is at 60% volume 1feet away ( and there is a normal amount of bass) i have a zoom h1 somewhere i will post sound with and without aiyima a07 amp so you guys can have a look at the freq response graph

 

[voodooless]

You could have just actually zipped the video file

 

[VintageFlanker]

You could have just actually zipped the video file

Yes, that's usually what people do with a zip file. Like people often use actual amps to power 87dB (rated) passive speakers.

See the video(download attached zip and rename to.mp4)

I did and I cannot conclude anything from such a recording. It just sounds awful, sorry.

Anyway this all thread is a waste of time, I regret. If you like what you hear, be my guest !

 

[voodooless]

I must say though, the idea is not completely bonkers. Something like a Topping L30 II would be quite capable of powering a 16R compression driver to ear-chattering levels at about 8W with better than 110 SINAD. But that is far more than the 50-or-so mW that this dongle will give.

 

[amanieux]

Yes, that's usually what people do with a zip file. Like people often use actual amps to power 87dB (rated) passive speakers.


I did and I cannot conclude anything from such a recording. It juste sounds awful, sorry.

Anyway this all thread is a waste of time, I regret. If you like what you hear, be my guest !

Please keep an open mind until we check fr response graph to see if it is real nonesense, but from my ear at 60% volume it sounds better than with my a07 at 5% volume ( but of course for a large living room setup, an amp is required )

 

[voodooless]

Please keep an open mind until we check fr response graph to see if it is real nonesense, but from my ear at 60% volume it sounds better than with my a07 at 2% volume

Let me guess, there is more bass?

... sure, the output impedance of the dongle is much higher.

 

[amanieux]

Let me guess, there is more bass?

... sure, the output impedance of the dongle is much higher.

Similar amount of bass at 60% (1 feet away) compared to ifi go link at 80%+aiyima a07 at 5% i was suprised too to hear that level of bass, but bass does not scale up over 80% volume

 

[restorer-john]

I must say though, the idea is not completely bonkers.

It's not bonkers.

I remember in the 1970s when I was very young, hooking my pocket transistor radio up to one of Dad's 15" 3 way Empire royal Grenadiers 9000Ms via the 1/8" earphone jack and it sounded perfectly fine. We listened to a whole afternoon of cricket broadcast on 2xAA batteries. Flat out, the radio would have put out about 100mW, so likely 15-20mW.