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advice and help to select new audio system

ptw

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2024
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Location
Angers, France
Hello everyone,

I'm here to ask for your feedback and advice on the choice of equipment. After a lot of research and combing the net, forums, comparisons, measurement analyses (many right here), subjective opinions, I've learned a lot, discovered lots of brands and models, but I'm still wondering which are the best options for me.

Let's start with what I need: a versatile audio system for audio listening and home cinema, connected to a variety of digital and analog sources (Android TV, NAS, turntable, etc.).

It will be use in a living room measuring a little more than thirty square meters. Note that the layout of my room means that the speakers will have to be installed perpendicular to the length of the room.

What I listen to: Mostly pop rock, some electro, and the occasional metal or rap digression, at medium volume, rarely at very high. I also watch a variety of films (60% music, 40% film).
I try as much as possible to use quality sources and formats (music and film).

For the past ten years or so, I've owned an eltax monitor home cinema system (III and center) + focal cub 3 sub + entry-level yamaha AVR, bought on my limited student budget at the time (around 600€ for the whole set, including cables and delivery) for a 15m² room at the time. It was already a slap in the face compared to the little budgets PC speakers I'd had up until then.

Today, my system no longer match to my use and my needs, being now installed in a larger living room, and for a still versatile use. I find my set too narrow for music listening, lacking clarity and precision in the highs and mids, and power, and for home cinema the same reproach at moderate and medium volume for clarity. Bass is well helped by the subwoofer, even if it's not very precise, and it drools a little when the pace increases in hifi.

My first choice is a pair of floorspeakers, coupled with a central unit for home cinema, and an AVR for their versatility (yes, I know, a hifi amp will offer better listening quality, but how do I connect my different sources, and what about films?). I'm not closed to other configuration proposals that could just as easily be adapted. I could also keep my current subwoofer, even though it's a fairly basic, for home cinema if the columns are sufficient on their own for hifi. The idea is to keep the system for a number of years, arriving at a time in life when you're more settled.

During my research, I came to several conclusions.
- I quickly realized that there are many more hifi brands than you might think, and that made in France or Europe is not necessarily superior to made in far-off places (I live in France).
- Many parameters can be taken into account when choosing equipment according to your needs (build quality, sound tonality, power requirements or not, dispersion, warranty, quality of components, casing, ease of positioning in the room, ease of combining speakers and amp, etc.).

So I'm looking for advice to narrow down the field of possibilities to what might suit me best, so as to target my research for listening before buying. (I can't imagine asking you to do a listening test of 10 speaker brands combined with 3-4 different amps).

So I'm listing what I identified during my research, and which are a little above my budget, to see if it's negotiable with the sellers in the event of a batch purchase like my previous one. These are proposals that seem ideal. Also, there may be less expensive options, perhaps inferior in some respects, but perfectly acceptable in terms of performance/price ratio, which I haven't seen or been able to tell if they are worthwhile.

AVR
These two amps have the advantage of a fairly advanced on-screen configuration menu and feature Audissey calibration, which can be handy for people like me who spend a lot of time tinkering with settings to find something suitable.

Speakers
This is where it gets complicated. With my limited experience, I've identified several sets that seem suitable at first glance.

  • Dynaudio : Emit II C25 center + Dynaudio Emit II 50 : (total 2700€) they need power, positioning must be done with care, little info on tone
  • B&W : HTM6 S3 center + 603 S3 : (total 3000€) Doesn't seem to offer the best value for money
  • sonus faber : Lumina Center I + Sonus Faber Lumina III : (2900€) : Home-made filter, seems to be of high quality and yet weighs much less than the others (but is that a problem?).A little limited in the bass, good for the rest. Easy to position (event down). Brand tone. 8-year warranty.
  • dali : Oberon Vokal center (or Dali Oberon Grand Vokal) + oberon 9 : (2650€) easy to feed, well-presented bass, good dispersion, easy to place. Perhaps a little less precise and responsive than the others. Little information on the quality of the filters used and the finish.
  • focal : theva centre (or vestia centre) + theva n3 d : (2200€) little information on filter quality and no precise measurements to give an idea of their level. Better with enough juice. What are the differences between theva n3 and vestia 2, apart from the price? Focal is well known, but is the brand still up to in this price range ?
  • monitor audio : silver 7g C250 + silver 300 7g (or silver 500 7g) : (2450€) fairly neutral, the 3-way control unit would be more efficient than the more basic ones. Doesn't require too much juice.
There are also a few other contenders for whom I haven't found enough resources and feedback to make up my mind about them:
  • q acoustics 3050c, 5040, 5050
  • dali oliberon 5 / 7
  • Monitor Audio Bronze 500
  • Wharfedale Diamond 12.4
I've eliminated the triangle borea which seem to have a few problems in the midrange, although their price is much cooler for my wallet, I intend to keep this system for quite a few years and so I'd rather spend a little more and be fully satisfied (well, we're at the bottom of the list).
I've also eliminated the Polk R500, whose design doesn't appeal to me at all, the Revel F35 and F36 because they're out of my budget and hard to find, and the Davis Acoustics Ariane and Krypton because they don't seem to be up to the asking price.

Eventual power amp
AUDIOPHONICS HPA-T400ET (1900€) : a three channel power amp, no that much different from the Audiophonics HPA-S400ET reviewed here. In case of hungry speaker choice, and maybe with a less expensives AVR.


SUB
Probably in a second time, a SVS SB-1000 PRO to replace my actual.

---


My preferences are monitor audio 300 7g + marantz cinema 40, and focal theva n3 + denon x4800h. I'm not necessarily sure about the associations, and perhaps a more modest AVR coupled with a power amp would be a wiser choice. I'm not in a hurry and can wait for interesting discount.

After this “short” introduction, don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions, suggestions or comments on what I've said.
 
Welcome to ASR. You've found the right place!

My vote would be:
- Denon
- Focal (you're in France after all)

Your other inclinations (amp & sub) seem good.

Let us know what you decide on.
 
Welcome to ASR -

I will just throw it out there, the KEF LS60 might work if you pair it with some subs, given that the room is pretty large. It seems your amp+speaker budget can accommodate them. If you are not opposed to actives they should be on your list. And then you can save some money on the amps that way.
 
(yes, I know, a hifi amp will offer better listening quality, but how do I connect my different sources, and what about films?). I'm not closed to other configuration proposals that could just as easily be adapted. I could also keep my current subwoofer, even though it's a fairly basic, for home cinema if the columns are sufficient on their own for hifi. The idea is to keep the system for a number of years, arriving at a time in life when you're more settled.

What "hifi" amps would those be? I'd get a real sub, tho.
 
Welcome to ASR -

I will just throw it out there, the KEF LS60 might work if you pair it with some subs, given that the room is pretty large. It seems your amp+speaker budget can accommodate them. If you are not opposed to actives they should be on your list. And then you can save some money on the amps that way.
Thanks for the advice. I check the price of KEF LS60 and it is very higher than what I listed on my post (in France).
 
Welcome to ASR. You've found the right place!

My vote would be:
- Denon
- Focal (you're in France after all)

Your other inclinations (amp & sub) seem good.

Let us know what you decide on.
thanks for the advice. I will continue to keep on eye on those product price. I already seen 15% discount when 3 products are bought at the same time, or the cinema 40 at 2000€ (2400€ now). Patience can save money.

And yes, it seems there is a lot of people with experience with those kind of product here :)
 
Hi @ptw, if you haven't already purchased yet just adding a few thoughts.

AVR: you may want to consider going with the X3800H instead and save ~700 EUR (showing 979 vs 1690 for me right now). Discussed a bit here, there are some small improvements (think <1dB amp power difference, made in Japan instead of Vietnam, likely inaudible de-jitter chip and measured distortion), so to me the 3800 seems better value and not giving up much but obviously you may weigh those things differently.

Based on previous review of other Marantz models here not seeing much that would recommend it over one of the Denons.

Speakers: personally I'd lean towards the MA Silver (disclaimer: might be biased as owner of 7G 500 + C250) for two main reasons (1) 3-way center should have better horizontal dispersion and lower IMD, sounds like from your comment you're aware of some or all of the benefits, just in case you're not this thread and linked video is a good summary (2) 7G 500 measurements look good, Stereophile measured them too, 7G 300 measurements a bit worse I think but still pretty good, they've been discussed in thread here if you haven't seen it. As you mentioned re: juice they're quite high sensitivity and pretty friendly impedance (don't go below 4 ohms) so would expect AVR should handle these fine and hopefully avoid the need for an external amp.

Unfortunately no measurements for the C250 that I'm aware of, it has the same tweeter and midrange but it would be going on hope that what looks like the good engineering shown by the floorstanders carries over into the center channel. For your size room and described volume levels I'd think 300 should get loud enough. The 500 does seem to measure a bit better from Soundstage linked above, has 3dB higher sensitivity and slightly deeper bass (only 4Hz?) according to specs, guess it depends on price difference if that would be worth it.

If you haven't seen it Amir did review the 2.5-way predecessor line to those Focals here, his subjective review on them was good and the 3-way + updated line would hopefully (but not always) be better. Min impedance 2.9ohms for the mains increases likelihood the AVR will struggle and end up wanting external amp (centre is 3.8 ohms and 91dB, might only need a 2-channel amp?). The Focal centre also has bigger woofers (6.5 vs 5.25) higher sensitivity (specs 2.5dB) and lower frequency extension (specs 14Hz) over the C250 so those advantages could be worth more for your situation particularly if you're mostly listening on axis.

Personal preference can also play a big part with speakers though, so it's always recommended to (either with trial or return policy) listen to them first in your own room ideally or at a store if you can, understand that's not always possible though. I like the MA Silver in my room but don't have enough points of comparison for that to be worth much.

Subwoofer: definitely think this would be a very worthwhile upgrade given your current one 8-inch/150W/40Hz@+/-3dB wouldn't be adding much low frequency extension or be able to keep up with the speakers at higher volumes. A lot of people here would recommend dual subwoofers for more even bass in room (and gets louder), plenty of threads on the topic if you're interested but tradeoffs with having space in the room to place a second sub and budget up to you if you'd want to go down that path.

I'm not familiar with the best options in Europe for subwoofers but from a quick look that SB-1000 Pro seems like a solid choice. Some other options I've seen mentioned are XTZ 12.17 Edge (600 EUR, ported, no 3rd party measurements but specs look good) and Arendal 1961 (1V still available but 1200 EUR, 1S looks like out of stock and discontinued?). SVS ported/PB series get quite a bit louder for small increase in price but are larger and only available in Ash finish, so depends on your room and preferences if visuals already rule those out.

Amplifier: hopefully AVR can handle things fine and you won't need the extra expense. That Purifi looks like a very nice model, depending on required power and importance to you of very good vs excellent (inaudibly better?) measurements the Hypex NCore series could also be a good option at a lower price e.g. https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...annel-ncore-nc252mp-4x250w-4-ohm-p-14356.html or https://nordacoustics.co.uk/product/nord-one-mp-nc502-2-4ch-amplifier/
 
Thanks Silver Bodgie for your very detail comment. I already see Erin video about center speaker. That why the Monitor one got my attention. Unfortunately there is only few options for 3 ways center speakers in my (already good) budget that can be pair with good floorspeakers, so I look to other center like the Focal as it will be use for movie mainly in front of it. I note that the Monitor Audio is perceived as very accurate and detail, while the focal will be move warmer, with more presence.
I think about association of Monitor audio with Marantz because it seems to be perceived as warmer, so I think it will be more pleasant to listen than with the Denon (only based on what I read). For the Focal, as they are perceived as warm, the Denon seems to be sufficient (still based on what I read, not listen).

I don't select the Denon 3800h based on the Amir test where it seems to be worst than the previous generation (3700h), and because the 4800h have a better power amp section (The Focal have a 2,9 ohms minimum impedance as you see) and a positive review (maybe not that much over the 3800h).
Based on what you say, A Denon 3800h with the Focal's and an external amp for floorstanders could be an option, while the Monitor can be play without needing external amp with any of those AVR.

For the subwoofer, I will probably have to wait for a while and keep my actual Focal cub 3. I think an upgrade will be enough for me, and two subwoofer will be overkill for my usage.

I am still watching prices, maybe wait the black friday an other "special offer" day, no hurry, and if I can I will probably try to listen them before.
 
Unfortunately there is only few options for 3 ways center speakers in my (already good) budget that can be pair with good floorspeakers
Yeah 3-way centers are unfortunately not that common, one other that wasn't on your list that might be worth considering is the new KEF Q Meta series, depending on if you want towers (~2550EUR) or 3-way bookshelf (1950EUR excl. stands) currently:
The 2-way Q3 Meta measurements look a bit disappointing (https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-q-meta-is-coming.57186/post-2102685), I think Erin is expected to release a review of the 3-way bookshelf in the near future which hopefully does better.
I think about association of Monitor audio with Marantz because it seems to be perceived as warmer, so I think it will be more pleasant to listen than with the Denon (only based on what I read)
RE: the AVR options the claims of "warmer" sound from the Marantz I'd be very skeptical about. Usually that term is applied to a frequency response that's heavier in bass and from another Marantz review there's no evidence of it there (and would be defective design if it did). Frequency response adjustments to tailor sound preferences would be better done by setting a target curve in the room correction software these AVRs come with anyway. The term might also be used to describe high even-order harmonic distortion like tube amps are associated with, but at least that other Marantz model the distortion looks pretty clean so again not seeing why Marantz should sound different in that way to the Denons.
I don't select the Denon 3800h based on the Amir test where it seems to be worst than the previous generation (3700h), and because the 4800h have a better power amp section
On the 3800H the measuring bench numbers aren't quite as good for the DAC, but it's still <0.05%, I don't think there's any evidence humans ear could detect that with test tones let alone music. That's at 2V which is only relevant to external amps (and for the Purifi playing very loud), as I think the Denon internal amps would max out and clip ~1.4V where the SINAD difference is ~90dB for 3800H vs ~92dB for 4800H.

If you're using the internal amps the 1KHz 5W digital input results are also much closer at 84dB vs 86dB. If anything the 3800H looks cleaner in the Power vs Distortion at 4 Ohm graph, e.g. just looking at the "standard" 5W measurement level: 1KHz the 3800H has 84dB/0.006%, but at 5KHz 3800H is 82dB/0.008% while 4800H is at best 77dB/0.014%. At 1W again a reasonable listening level the 4800H is 73dB/0.022% i.e. 4x higher in percentage terms than the amount that ranks 3800H lower in DAC SINDAD terms. For the record I don't think either of these AVRs will have an issue in practice, but even if valuing the theoretical/good-engineering best performance it's not clear to me at least which is "closer" to hitting audible issues when used with internal amps ...

... besides the 3800H running out of power slightly sooner. However at lower impedance the biggest difference looks to be ~180W vs ~210W @ 4-ohm 1% THD which I think works out to ~0.7dB. Just to say the difference in maximum power at lower impedances will be very small, and therefore I think it's extremely unlikely to have a case where for your speaker+volume combination the 4800H upgrade would be the difference between wanting external amplification or not.

Sorry this turned into another long post, just want to make sure if you do decide paying the premium for a 4800H is worth it to you that it's with enough context to the measurements Amir has provided here.
 
Thanks for the advice. I check the price of KEF LS60 and it is very higher than what I listed on my post (in France).
It’s around € 5000,- for the pair (sometimes for € 500,- less is your patient). You are willing to spend 2k on an amp and 3k on speakers. I’d say, it’s within budget. It’s at least an out-of-the-box option to consider.

Regardless of this specific model, you should put KEF on your list. They have some excellent passive floor standing speaker within your budget as well.
 
Yeah 3-way centers are unfortunately not that common, one other that wasn't on your list that might be worth considering is the new KEF Q Meta series, depending on if you want towers (~2550EUR) or 3-way bookshelf (1950EUR excl. stands) currently:
The 2-way Q3 Meta measurements look a bit disappointing (https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-q-meta-is-coming.57186/post-2102685), I think Erin is expected to release a review of the 3-way bookshelf in the near future which hopefully does better.

RE: the AVR options the claims of "warmer" sound from the Marantz I'd be very skeptical about. Usually that term is applied to a frequency response that's heavier in bass and from another Marantz review there's no evidence of it there (and would be defective design if it did). Frequency response adjustments to tailor sound preferences would be better done by setting a target curve in the room correction software these AVRs come with anyway. The term might also be used to describe high even-order harmonic distortion like tube amps are associated with, but at least that other Marantz model the distortion looks pretty clean so again not seeing why Marantz should sound different in that way to the Denons.

On the 3800H the measuring bench numbers aren't quite as good for the DAC, but it's still <0.05%, I don't think there's any evidence humans ear could detect that with test tones let alone music. That's at 2V which is only relevant to external amps (and for the Purifi playing very loud), as I think the Denon internal amps would max out and clip ~1.4V where the SINAD difference is ~90dB for 3800H vs ~92dB for 4800H.

If you're using the internal amps the 1KHz 5W digital input results are also much closer at 84dB vs 86dB. If anything the 3800H looks cleaner in the Power vs Distortion at 4 Ohm graph, e.g. just looking at the "standard" 5W measurement level: 1KHz the 3800H has 84dB/0.006%, but at 5KHz 3800H is 82dB/0.008% while 4800H is at best 77dB/0.014%. At 1W again a reasonable listening level the 4800H is 73dB/0.022% i.e. 4x higher in percentage terms than the amount that ranks 3800H lower in DAC SINDAD terms. For the record I don't think either of these AVRs will have an issue in practice, but even if valuing the theoretical/good-engineering best performance it's not clear to me at least which is "closer" to hitting audible issues when used with internal amps ...

... besides the 3800H running out of power slightly sooner. However at lower impedance the biggest difference looks to be ~180W vs ~210W @ 4-ohm 1% THD which I think works out to ~0.7dB. Just to say the difference in maximum power at lower impedances will be very small, and therefore I think it's extremely unlikely to have a case where for your speaker+volume combination the 4800H upgrade would be the difference between wanting external amplification or not.

Sorry this turned into another long post, just want to make sure if you do decide paying the premium for a 4800H is worth it to you that it's with enough context to the measurements Amir has provided here.
Don't be sorry, it is very instructive for me. This is the kind of comment that help me to understand the difference between chart and reality. I was probably thinking wrong about the difference between the two Denon (and the Marantz).
I will look at the KEF, I don't know much about them. Thanks to report me there is 3 ways center speaker.


Thank also to voodooless to pointing me Kef model.
 
Thanks for the advice. I check the price of KEF LS60 and it is very higher than what I listed on my post (in France).
I will just say 2 things about the LS60 - it includes amp and DAC built-in, so you don't need to save budget for those.

And (although this frustrates me because I paid a bit more) they do go on sale somewhat regularly. I have seen them for as little as $3500 in the US. You could also look for a secondhand deal. I am not sure about France but in the UK there should be deals as well since they are based there. So if you keep your eyes peeled you may find them inside your budget.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_ls60/ although you can get speakers with a little bit flatter frequency response, I am not sure if you find speakers with better directivity. This makes them do better even in rooms that aren't ideal.
 
Welcome to asr, buying a new setup is always exciting! As you have probably heard the speakers are by far the most important in your setup.

For speakers I've heard some of your selection when buying a new setup myself years ago.
I was unimpressed by the monitor audio silver and the Dali Oberon line. Both sounded muddy to me. I like the higher line better. I believe that was the opticon.
Focal: in general I like the sound, mist series however have too much energy in the 8khz region which causes listening fatigue. I've owned the aria 936 (still my favorite focal speaker) and the sopra2. The 936 is also measured by stereophile.
I currently own revel and don't feel like ever changing again. So maybe you can look for a (used) pair of f206/208 or true end game f226BE. I know that a French webshop homecinesolutions.fr has great deal some times on demo models of focal. Actually bought my 936 pair there.

I think you would be happy with a Denon avr. Yes the audio phonics purifi is a better amp but I would rather put the price difference in a speaker.

The svs subs are great and as another member mentioned the European counter parts would be xtz and arendal. I would personally go with ported subwoofer with a tower soeaker.

Good luck and let us know where you end up with :)
 
Yeah if the LS60 can be made to work with budget they look to be great speakers, certainly for the 60% music use case would be a top contender.

Depending how much priority you put on the 40% movie use you would be losing 3.1/5.1/... support, LFE channel content and room correction (I don't think LS60 offers PEQ to address room issues manually either?).
 
Which of the three AVR's you pick maybe more of a design than a sound issue. All of them will do a great job.
The sound of speaker (and AVR) greatly depends on the Audessey setting you will choose or make (there is a nice app).
Consider not using a specialized center speaker, but 3 identical ones for the front row if your room permits. IMO this will sound better in most cases. Center speaker are mostly a compromise, just to have a horizontal position.
As a Frenchman you should find some nice speakers in the Focal line. If possible listen to them first. In most cases the different product lines will have a matching sound signature. In a HT setup they will sound better and produce higher SPL than they do in stereo. Keep that in mind, lower bass will not be a great advantage if cut of around 80 hz anyway, with a sub. Neutral voice reproduction and distortion free mid and high range are most important for HT. If you can, do not go for less than 6" drivers in the front row or a 5" MTM speaker.
Maybe keep your sub for a start as it is the best component of your current setup. Get a second one later, the AVR's support two in individual positions anyway.
Audessey will match the speaker to the room and to some extend correct some non linear response. It can not correct any distortion. You may try that with your old speakers. They will not improve that much than a set of really good ones.
Last, if you have a good 5.1 setup, you will only in very rare cases like it better to listen in pure stereo. Most recordings have enough room information to improve in multi speaker mode. So don't go for expensive L+R and cheap out on the rest.
Any recommendation of a HIFI dealer depends on what he has in stock and where most profit is made. Keep that in mind.
 
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Depending how much priority you put on the 40% movie use you would be losing 3.1/5.1/... support, LFE channel content and room correction (I don't think LS60 offers PEQ to address room issues manually either?).
These are valid concerns. Parts of these could be solved with something like the WiiM Ultra. It will give P/room-EQ and better bass management. No surrounds formats though.

But one could always add an AVR later to add surround. And no need to spend 2K on that. If you wait to get the LS60 at a massive discount, and add an X3800h, you have all the features you need and can always expand later.
 
Welcome to asr, buying a new setup is always exciting! As you have probably heard the speakers are by far the most important in your setup.

For speakers I've heard some of your selection when buying a new setup myself years ago.
I was unimpressed by the monitor audio silver and the Dali Oberon line. Both sounded muddy to me. I like the higher line better. I believe that was the opticon.
Focal: in general I like the sound, mist series however have too much energy in the 8khz region which causes listening fatigue. I've owned the aria 936 (still my favorite focal speaker) and the sopra2. The 936 is also measured by stereophile.

For now, I only have done a quick listening in a big store where there is a dedicated space some months ago (I go there for another thing, so I just pass quickly). I only listen 3 speakers but I don't remember which model and with which amp it was. I notice that the Focal model was far more present than the two other (triangle and dali I think) with the same amp, with far more bass (maybe to much). I will try to listen some models. Focal could be easy to find for listening (in France), KEF or Monitor Audio will probably be harder.

I know that a French webshop homecinesolutions.fr has great deal some times on demo models of focal.
I check that too sometimes ;)
 
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