Trying to understand the turntable/vinyl world...

[rdenney]

Problem there is only one human on earth had that skill. LOL

175 years ago, yes. A few more have acquired it since then.

Rick “CNC micro-machining is good to maybe 50 millionths” Denney

 

[Blumlein 88]

For anyone interested in such things this is a terrifically entertaining book.

The layout is starting at a certain level of precision and telling about the people and processes to achieve it. Moving into more and more precise things as you go further into the book.

Even if you know such things the book is interesting to lay out the history of various aspects of precision and how one thing lead to another and another. How precision in one area leads to it in another area often in unexpected ways. Also how some thing achieved a level long ago and haven't been improved upon to the surprise of many people who assume everything gets much better all the time.

Amazon.com: The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World eBook : Winchester, Simon: Kindle Store

Amazon.com: The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World eBook : Winchester, Simon: Kindle Store

www.amazon.com

 

[PipeOrganNorm]

I'm certainly not going to get into the discussion as it has developed in this thread, but vinyl (and even shellac) have had, and still maintain, a place in this pursuit of audio enjoyment. As mmi said (post #746), there is a LOT of music that will never be issued digitally, music that is valuable in its own right, and perhaps also having sentimental value to the owner. My interest in analogue has been in retrieving the audio and preserving it digitally, processing the digital file lightly to remove the clicks and pops and surface noise inherent in the medium, almost always exacerbated by poor care and handling. I recently restored an lp recording of a high school choir recital that a friend had performed in -- 60 years ago. He hadn't listened to it in decades, and only recalled the scratches that ruined the listening experience for him. He was very pleased with the result. What isn't there cannot be created or re-created, but what is there can be made pleasurable to listen to. And, in the end, that is the idea behind all of this.

 

[Chrispy]

So who has started this vinyl appreciation (err scientific analysis thereof) thread? Gonna have some "rules" stated up front that anyone will pay any attention to?

 

[JeremyFife]

Really? How long have you been reading Amir's reviews here? They're 100% about measuring for the "hHgh Fidelity" of gear under test. Or maybe that a big part of the problem, some folks not even understanding what he does here ???
Maybe you should start asking some questions on the details of our reviews that you don't understand. I'm not an EE but there are many here that can help you to understand some of the areas your missing. Also google can be a great friend, I've spent near as much time on google over the years as I do here looking things up. We always hoped folks would come here looking for a deeper understanding of the technology of High Fidelity.

And I wish you wouldn't go to this Politcialy Correct extreme of calling anyone that disagrees with you and offers up technically exact truths "haters". There is no HATE involved, if there is, then I wish you would quit coming to a science based website and hating on science..

Then why are you here?

??? Sure, isn't that exactly what we're doing?
It's just the facts of the answers you don't want to hear about.

IMHO, Mikey Fremer has been the biggest obstical to the advancement of true High Fidelity Reproduction in the home I've ever witnessed in my 50 some years as a Hi Fi enthusiast. Sad.

@Sal1950 don't appreciate the patronising tone mate - I read and comprehend (most) of the posts here and I love the inclusive vibe of ASR. Keep it like that.
Love music: choose to enjoy some on vinyl - my business.

 

[Sal1950]

@Sal1950 don't appreciate the patronising tone mate - I read and comprehend (most) of the posts here

Then what was the purpose-question in this post?
Amir's measurements of gear shows how each component in the review is performing it's job.
What else is it the bolded text is asking?
Sorry but I don't have a lot of filters, my responses are as short as possible and directly relate my thoughts at the time.

"How do you measure 'high fidelity' then? I understand the term 'bit perfect' - that's clear, is that what you mean?
I'm not talking about the recording, but the signal processing that takes place which changes the input into our hi-fi systems and which can be different for different media."

 

[JeremyFife]

Then what was the purpose-question in this post?
Amir's measurements of gear shows how each component in the review is performing it's job.
What else is it the bolded text is asking?
Sorry but I don't have a lot of filters, my responses are as short as possible and directly relate my thoughts at the time.

"How do you measure 'high fidelity' then? I understand the term 'bit perfect' - that's clear, is that what you mean?
I'm not talking about the recording, but the signal processing that takes place which changes the input into our hi-fi systems and which can be different for different media."

Measurements here and on other sites do indeed measure performance of components. Those measurements demonstrate the higher performance of digital transports Vs analogue. Other measurements demonstrate the limitations of vinyl as a method for storing audio. No issues or argument.
My point, for discussion and to add to this thread's debate, is that the processed recording stored on vinyl can be different to the same recording distributed digitally. That difference is often down to deliberate mastering decisions and can have a detrimental affect on the audio.
I'll take lower quality, well mastered audio over high quality, badly mastered audio any day.
Secondary point is that finding information on how a file has been mastered is difficult so choosing where to spend the money is tricky.

It's a valid reason for enjoying music on vinyl, quite apart from just enjoying music on vinyl (which is my prerogative)

 

[Sal1950]

I'll take lower quality, well mastered audio over high quality, badly mastered audio any day.

Not sure about the lower quality well mastered part.
I believe I get your direction, your referring to a limited DR digital vs a vinyl with a wider DR?
I hear that often

Secondary point is that finding information on how a file has been mastered is difficult so choosing where to spend the money us tricky.

Feel free to make posts on various masters of each recording if you like. you'll find some limited posting here on that.
OTOH, that's not the focus of what we do here, we measure gear. There are other sites that focus on that aspect and where I go when doing my homework.

 

[Chrispy]

Wooah wait a minute, you need simultaneously the proper demagnetizer applied with the moon in the correct orientation and your ex-wife looking the other way. Believe that's the Fremerway

 

[JeremyFife]

Not sure about the lower quality well mastered part.
I believe I get your direction, your referring to a limited DR digital vs a vinyl with a wider DR?
I hear that often


Feel free to make posts on various masters of each recording if you like. you'll find some limited posting here on that.
OTOH, that's not the focus of what we do here, we measure gear. There are other sites that focus on that aspect and where I go when doing my homework.

Interesting - which other sites do you recommend for that?

 

[Sal1950]

Interesting - which other sites do you recommend for that?

Steve Hoffmans site is a major gathering place where audiophiles get together to discuss recording quality.
If I have a question on a particular release I'll go there and do a search on it first.
What I care most about today are multich recordings and I spend a lot of time at
QuadraphonicQuad forums.
If your a Classical music person I'm sure there's better places but that's not my thing.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Sorry but I don't have a lot of filters, my responses are as short as possible and directly relate my thoughts at the time.

Perhaps your "bedside manner" could use some refinement. Put in electronic terms - a little feedback (reconsideration) does wonders for an amplifiers (brain) output (spoken or written words).
Not trying to start a "food fight", just an observation from my viewpoint,

 

[DWI]

Then what was the purpose-question in this post?
Amir's measurements of gear shows how each component in the review is performing it's job.
What else is it the bolded text is asking?
Sorry but I don't have a lot of filters, my responses are as short as possible and directly relate my thoughts at the time.

"How do you measure 'high fidelity' then? I understand the term 'bit perfect' - that's clear, is that what you mean?
I'm not talking about the recording, but the signal processing that takes place which changes the input into our hi-fi systems and which can be different for different media."

I think the analogue/vinyl thing really sums up the difference between the ASR approach and the other 99% of audio users. Someone posted a link the other day to an interview of Lawrence Dickie on Soundonsound, where he said he was not a great theoretician, but a very good practical engineer. I looked him up and and saw he was at Southampton University about 1978-81. That was a coincidence because at the time I was working in Southampton in a specialist engineering business (mostly Marine and Aviation) that was set up by a bunch of engineers from Southampton's Institute of Sound and Vibration Research. I can only assume that is where LD was studying. It was a world leading research centre at the time.

LD is in a long line of engineers who sought practical solutions for practical problems, whether Alan Blumlein when at EMI finding a solution to the problem of speech in talking movies or Arthur Haddy leading a team at Decca to detect and record German Luftwaffe and shipping signals, technology that revolutionised the recording and audio industry as well as helping to end WWII.

Vinyl playback really is the absolute peak of practical audio engineering. It absolutely amazes me how good it can sound, given how it works. That even applies to many recordings made from about 1975 to 1987 recorded digitally and released on analogue. (Kenneth Gilbert's Bach 48 on Archiv from 1984 is a case in point, digitally recorded and released in CD and vinyl versions). It doesn't mean these guys are bad engineers, far from it, but their objectives are more nuanced than simply reducing SINAD from one inaudible level to the next.

The dynamic range may be only 60dB, even that is not a practical limitation. My set-up does not suffer from pops or clicks (all records wet cleaned) or vibration (well isolated). It's solid state and I use a modestly priced MC cartridge (Denon DL103R modified with a ruby cantilever and paratrace tip). It's not for the lack of a good digital source, which I have.

The argument will go on because digital and analog/vinyl seem to be the products of engineers with a completely different toolbox speaking a different language. I just listen to the format that gives me most pleasure, and that is usually decided by the quality of the recording and the type of music.

 

[DWI]

FWIW, my turntable wasn't even made by an audio company, it was a one-off project by a precision machining company, that mostly manufactures components for medical and aerospace businesses, and some other audio companies. The manufacturing tolerance is something like 0.01mm. The bearing is a work of art. The arm mounts are machined to order to the length of the arm being used to a tolerance of 0.1mm. They chose to use the same motors as in the Linn LP12 and Rega belts, so there are no spare part issues. There is simple electronic speed control. Assembly takes 10 minutes.

It really is more about quality of fabrication. Mine is not unique, SME make some of the world's best turntables and they are primarily a precision engineering business, more than an audio business.

SME | Sectors

sme.co.uk

 

[JeremyFife]

Steve Hoffmans site is a major gathering place where audiophiles get together to discuss recording quality.
If I have a question on a particular release I'll go there and do a search on it first.
What I care most about today are multich recordings and I spend a lot of time at
QuadraphonicQuad forums.
If your a Classical music person I'm sure there's better places but that's not my thing.

Ta.
Hoffman's site is always interesting ... lots of words to wade through and some dodgy opinions (as in all sites)! I use it too. Not so much Classical, but I'm getting into Jazz more. Broad spectrum of interests really, as long as the music moves me. Still nothing much on mastering of digital releases (esp. streamed) ... I'll keep digging

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

FWIW, my turntable wasn't even made by an audio company, it was a one-off project by a precision machining company, that mostly manufactures components for medical and aerospace businesses, and some other audio companies. The manufacturing tolerance is something like 0.01mm. The bearing is a work of art. The arm mounts are machined to order to the length of the arm being used to a tolerance of 0.1mm. They chose to use the same motors as in the Linn LP12 and Rega belts, so there are no spare part issues. There is simple electronic speed control. Assembly takes 10 minutes.

It really is more about quality of fabrication. Mine is not unique, SME make some of the world's best turntables and they are primarily a precision engineering business, more than an audio business.

SME | Sectors

sme.co.uk

Common sense at last! Many posting on this thread have never heard a precision engineered turntable, preferring to sneer at the thought of vinyl being worth listening too. There are others who post pictures of turntables that weren’t any good 40 years ago when they were new. Then going on about how good automatic stacking multi disc turntables were? One further thought on the turntable / digital discussion is the mechanical inertia in a turntable ensures it can’t track the distortions inherent in digital reproduction.

 

[Newman]

Many posting on this thread have never heard a precision engineered turntable, preferring to sneer at the thought of vinyl being worth listening too.

You see, that is the sort of inflammatory characterisation that threads like this are better off without.

Plus, aside from the unkind insinuations, look at what you are saying about TT sound. Earlier this morning post #760 IPunchCholla described how his wife has great difficulty telling apart a modest Technics TT and digital, and this being evidence that their sound is really very close. But you imply that there is this Whole Other Level of TT sound that we need to hear before judging it. Okay….so does this precision TT sound quality lie between modest TT and digital? In that tiny gap that others say is so close to sounding the same?

Or are you saying that it leaps ahead of digital into a Whole Other Level, which I keep being told that nobody ever claims about vinyl sound.

People are trying to have their cake and eat it too. I call.

cheers

 

[Cote Dazur]

You see, that is the sort of inflammatory characterisation that threads like this are better off without.

I do not disagree with your comment, but from where I seat it looks all the Inflammatory is coming from a different member and that this thread would be better off without him.
Then we could maybe discuss the advantages in high precision machined TT in a serene environment.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

You see, that is the sort of inflammatory characterisation that threads like this are better off without.

Just commenting on what I’ve read on this thread. To get anything worthwhile out of vinyl reproduction costs! As DWI said precision engineering is needed, you can spout on as much as you want about cheap DACs being all you need for a decent result whether for streaming or CDs and I won’t put up much of an argument. Precision mechanical engineering can’t be done on the cheap.
Fell for all the BS spouted about how good cheap turntables are, the ones I bought went straight to EBAY. In the end realised if I wanted good vinyl sound it would cost, bit the bullet and it worked. For the first time no snap, crackle and pop when playing vinyl.
As a rider most of my listening is streaming based for convenience and very enjoyable too !

 

[JP]

To get anything worthwhile out of vinyl reproduction costs!

Does it? I've mind (but no time) to setup some experiments to vet this. Similar to the proclamations how sensitive line-type styli are to alignment, I'm curious how these hold up to controlled testing.