Topping D10 Balanced Review (USB DAC)

[actionmask]

oh well, i went through all 36 sites just to find the pcb picture i was searching for on the last page

not really happy to see that opamps are not changeable anymore (i tried a few and the OP1656 sounded best on the old D10 (probably because it can handle high impedance better than others with 10k impedance studio monitors)
also im unsure if its a good thing just one electrolyte capacitor is used compared to the old D10 which had 5 or 6 (i changed them to Nichicon Muse KZ`s and it had an nice effect, tho a added bypass capacitor on the OPamp (also Nichicon Muse KZ) has a far more audible effect)

The stock D10 sounded clear but it sounds way better with the mods, specially the OP2134 has some kind of "boring" feel to it
kinda crap to see the LM4562 because i didnt like it while testing it on the D10, it was better than the stock OP2134 (tho it sounded too bright for my taste), the OP1612 was a littler more clearer (clear highs but not as bright) and the OP1656 just beated them all (tho like i said probably because of better high impedance specs)

did anyone compare the old stock D10 with the D10 Balanced sound-wise? (tho its a stupid question because, atleast, i like the LM4652 more than the OP2134 too...) but probably there is more to it since for example lower jitter make me expect a change in the usb input circuitry too

D10b is quite bright (a bit harsh) to my ears (compared with luxury precision w2).
ESS DACs are always bright/harsh to me.
I am considering replacing LM4562 with OPA1612. There are 3 LM4562. 1 for I/V and 2 for balanced/LPF ?

Something better than the LM4562?

Let's just start with the fact that the LM4562 is a brilliant op amp, so I am not dissing it here. Nonetheless I have never used it for any length of time and have generally thought it to be precise and detailed, but utterly uninvolving. I am now aiming for a proper low distortion solution...

www.diyaudio.com

 

[Deleted member 23982]

D10b is quite bright (a bit harsh) to my ears (compared with luxury precision w2). I am considering replacing LM4562 with OPA1612.

oh just like i remember the LM4562 it was better than the stock OP2134 (in detail/clarity) but a bit harsh/bright as you said (maybe even somewhat "grainy" in the highs, if remember right)

i just came across those https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4000...&terminal_id=fbdc318ef8804a819e6673065239c99a
which would make it possible to re-use all dip opamps and make them swappable again (i hope height is not a problem)

probably will swap all 3 to OP1656, to my ears it was a good step up from the OP1612, tho i cant remember what it was exactly, little more detail for sure, if i remember correct also "clearer, more punchy" basses but i would have to compare again to tell exactly
since i tried the OP1656 i stopped bothering about opamps i wonder if there are even newer ones that got released which are worth looking at

 

[cheapmessiah]

The 10B would be a tad over 6 dB higher than the X6, detectable but, not dramatically so. What are you connecting the DAC output to?

Zen can.

 

[kchap]

Zen can.

After looking at the web site for the Zen CAN there would be no detectable level difference between the 10B connected to the Zen Can and the x6.

You should be using the 4.4 mm balanced input. The balanced I/P has a sensitivity of 4 V which matches the O/P of the 10B. That nearly matches the O/P level of the x6 (1.8 V) connected to the unbalanced I/P (2 V).

 

[cheapmessiah]

After looking at the web site for the Zen CAN there would be no detectable level difference between the 10B connected to the Zen Can and the x6.

You should be using the 4.4 mm balanced input. The balanced I/P has a sensitivity of 4 V which matches the O/P of the 10B. That nearly matches the O/P level of the x6 (1.8 V) connected to the unbalanced I/P (2 V).

If is not too much to ask, whats the reason the input signal of 2v doesnt get get as much gain as the 4v one? I mean topologically wise, as I presume that the design reason is related to either lowering noise floor, avoiding clipping on the max gain mode or limiting operational temperature.

 

[kchap]

If is not too much to ask, whats the reason the input signal of 2v doesnt get get as much gain as the 4v one? I mean topologically wise, as I presume that the design reason is related to either lowering noise floor, avoiding clipping on the max gain mode or limiting operational temperature.

There are any number of gain settings a designer could have chosen but a number of DACs seem to have 1 to 2 V SE output and 2 to 5 V for balanced outputs so 2 and 4 V for are reasonable figures for the Zen Can.

Increasing the gain by 6dB would have been convenient when selecting SE mode and may have been a by product of bypassing the inverting input anyway. I'm only speculating.

 

[actionmask]

oh just like i remember the LM4562 it was better than the stock OP2134 (in detail/clarity) but a bit harsh/bright as you said (maybe even somewhat "grainy" in the highs, if remember right)

i just came across those https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4000...&terminal_id=fbdc318ef8804a819e6673065239c99a
which would make it possible to re-use all dip opamps and make them swappable again (i hope height is not a problem)

probably will swap all 3 to OP1656, to my ears it was a good step up from the OP1612, tho i cant remember what it was exactly, little more detail for sure, if i remember correct also "clearer, more punchy" basses but i would have to compare again to tell exactly
since i tried the OP1656 i stopped bothering about opamps i wonder if there are even newer ones that got released which are worth looking at

First, I added two alumi cap for +- DC rails and found nothing changed. Then, I replaced lm4562 with muses8920. After replacing op-omp, d10b sounded normal for me. I think op1656 will also work because it's fet input.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

thanks for the pic i think its gonna be thight with the adapter thing, but you can "resolder" the 8 pins to make it less high, as long you can still reach the bottom pins to solder them on the board...

you can try replace the big electrolyte capacitor ( the 470 / 25V one ) with a quality one like the Nichicon KZ (i found them sounding the most flat) tho replacing the 5-6 on the old D10 just did a very small change, what really made a change were adding a 10 uF bypass capacitor to the opamps (you can solder them directly to the + and - pins of the op amp for best results)

Nichicon KZ -> most flat
Nichicon UES -> "subjectivly" hump in midbass and less deep bass, but they dont sound bad either otherwise
Nichicon FG -> i dont remember exactly what they did but not worth it compared to KZ/UES
Elna silmic II -> i just dont liked them, many do tho, they color the sound too much in my opinion, like specially mids if i remember right
i tried 1-2 more but i dont remember anymore

and give them 20-50h for burn in, people say the elna`s need even 100h and more before you judge them

 

[Veri]

You modders are a special breed of people (no offense!)

 

[actionmask]

It's a sad decision to use LM4562 here. I can not tell the difference between macbook phone output and DAC+amp. However, I found D10b sounds terrible with LM4562. Most DACs after 2019 are using opa1612 or opa1622. It's just extra $10 for 3 opa1612. If Topping wants to cut cost, just remove display or use plastic case.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

It's a sad decision to use LM4562 here. I can not tell the difference between macbook phone output and DAC+amp. However, I found D10b sounds terrible with LM4562. Most DACs after 2019 are using opa1612 or opa1622. It's just extra $10 for 3 opa1612. If Topping wants to cut cost, just remove display or use plastic case.

i agree, i really expected the 1612 here, because topping seems to use it quite often on other dacs, THO the LM4562 is still a improvement over the OP2134 (which sounds kinda "boring" and not as detailed) that was in the original D10, maybe they used the LM4562 because it was one of the always first recommended ones to swap in
i wonder which opamps the D10s has, EDIT: i cant believe it... the D10s actually uses OP1656 >.< https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/dsc_0567-jpg.77275/
i would have not liked to see a plastic case either

 

[Blumlein 88]

Any of this stuff improve the measured output? I don't see any aspect of the D10 that would be audible unless you degrade it significantly.

 

[actionmask]

Any of this stuff improve the measured output? I don't see any aspect of the D10 that would be audible unless you degrade it significantly.

Are you expecting guys who stay at home during the holiday, modding a $150 DAC, will own a APX555?

 

[Deleted member 23982]

i just noticed you use heatsinks on certain IC`s, did you ever consider to ground them? (full copper ones are probably easy to solder on, aluminium not so much tho...) i could imagin that this could make a change (if the heatsinks dont do it by themselfs already because of metal mass)

 

[actionmask]

i just noticed you use heatsinks on certain IC`s, did you ever consider to ground them? (full copper ones are probably easy to solder on, aluminium not so much tho...) i could imagin that this could make a change (if the heatsinks dont do it by themselfs already because of metal mass)

No, I didn't. That's too much trouble. If you want to improve EMI, I think you can use a USB isolator like topping HS-01 and a power supply like ifi.

 

[BDWoody]

Are you expecting guys who stay at home during the holiday, modding a $150 DAC, will own a APX555?

About as much as I'd expect anything to improve. It would be interesting to see how the mod'd box measures. I'm not saying there couldn't be audible differences...depends on how much noise or distortion is being introduced.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

No, I didn't. That's too much trouble. If you want to improve EMI, I think you can use a USB isolator like topping HS-01 and a power supply like ifi.

will probably test this one myself cant hurt i guess unless you make a short what made you use heatsinks? just the piece of mind?
be careful, if opamps "really" get hot they may oscillate
first time i read about the HS-01, also the cheapest high-speed isolator i saw so far.... thanks for that

 

[actionmask]

will probably test this one myself cant hurt i guess unless you make a short what made you use heatsinks? just the piece of mind?
be careful, if opamps "really" get hot they may oscillate
first time i read about the HS-01, also the cheapest high-speed isolator i saw so far.... thanks for that

Thanks for the information about caps. I happened to own a lot of heatsinks, so I used two.
About grounding the heatsink, one thing you need to know.
Topping couples the metal case to the circuit board with a gold pin. I "THOUGHT" it's directly connected to the USB socket shield, then connects to the circuit board GND by coupling a large resistor and a capacitor.
BUT I was wrong, the circuit board GND on D10b is directly connect to the metal case with the gold pin, then connects to the USB shield with 1M resistor.
If heatsink is directly connected to circuit GND, it will act as an antenna and pick up a lot noise.

 

[kchap]

Thanks for the information about caps. I happened to own a lot of heatsinks, so I used two.
About grounding the heatsink, one thing you need to know.
Topping couples the metal case to the circuit board with a gold pin. I "THOUGHT" it's directly connected to the USB socket shield, then connects to the circuit board GND by coupling a large resistor and a capacitor.
BUT I was wrong, the circuit board GND on D10b is directly connect to the metal case with the gold pin, then connects to the USB shield with 1M resistor.
If heatsink is directly connected to circuit GND, it will act as an antenna and pick up a lot noise.

Why is everyone intent on potentially bricking a perfectly good DAC and at at the very least voiding their warranty to fix nonexistent problems.

Leave it alone.

 

[actionmask]

Why is everyone intent on potentially bricking a perfectly good DAC and at at the very least voiding their warranty to fix nonexistent problems.

Leave it alone.

I don't like the bright sound of D10b, so I changed the op-amps. It stopped working several times, mostly when I was touching the trackpad or the charging phone. It's sensitive to ESD, so I looked into how it is grounded. I am using it with Topping L50 amp. L50 is perfect, but this one is NOT.
I am sharing information with people who need it. I'm sorry it's irritating to you.