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Too much scrutiny for power amplifiers?

DualTriode

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Hello,

I have been looking at the ASR reviews of powered monitor speakers a thought came to mind that the monitor power amplifiers were getting a pass in terms of testing and review. Some of the powered monitors have digital input with their own DAC’s. The powered monitor DAC’s also get a complete pass.



On the other hand it just might be that the stand alone power amplifiers are getting too much scrutiny.



Just for fun I took one of DIY monitors off my Bench to test today, using an APX analyzer, APX1701 and calibrated microphone. The 6 1/2in driver is a Peerless made in Denmark, Kevlar mid-bass driver. In a sealed 0.55 ft3 enclosure, the Q is 0.85. The monitors run 2.1 with a sub.



These are the results for the mid-bass:

Impedance Magnitude.jpg
Impedance Phase.JPG
Level and Distortion -_ Smooth.JPG


This is a descent driver. Still take a look at the H2 and H3 distortion products; they are much higher than any self respecting power amplifier would dream of producing. The driver distortion will mask any and all low level Harmonics that the power amplifier will produce.



Any interest?



I will also test the XT25 tweeter.



Thanks DT
 

solderdude

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What's the spectrum of the background noise of the mic in the same test conditions but no sound on the speakers ?
Is the 100dB SPL calibrated ?
What amp was used ?
Mic. distance ?
Gated measurements ?
 

Matias

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Yes, speakers have much higher distortion than amplifiers, which have much higher distortion that DACs. Still I think the idea for us consumers is to maximize the performance of each link in the chain.

But as R&D goes, for sure the larger gains are in drivers. That is why Purifi set their mission to study and develop lower distortion drivers for OEM.
 
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DualTriode

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What's the spectrum of the background noise of the mic in the same test conditions but no sound on the speakers ?
Is the 100dB SPL calibrated ?
What amp was used ?
Mic. distance ?
Gated measurements ?

yes calibrated.
amplifier is Audio Precision APx1701.
mic distance is about 12 inches to reduce room interaction.
Gated no. Later I will go outdoors out of the not too large shop and do gating outside away the from cooling fan noise.

DT
 
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DualTriode

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Yes, speakers have much higher distortion than amplifiers, which have much higher distortion that DACs. Still I think the idea for us consumers is to maximize the performance of each link in the chain.

But as R&D goes, for sure the larger gains are in drivers. That is why Purifi set their mission to study and develop lower distortion drivers for OEM.

Okay I will go with that for discussion. But it seems like a lot of cost and effort for little or no gain.

What about powered monitor amplifiers getting as pass?

DT
Level and Distortion -_ Smooth -_ Smooth room and fans.jpg
 
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Vini darko

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Okay I will go with that for discussion. But it seems like a lot of cost and effort for little or no gain.

What about powered monitor amplifiers getting as pass?

DT
With most monitors being dsp corrected to fix issues with the drivers and cabinet. Seperating the internal amplifiers/dacs would be somwhat pointless (and a huge amount of work). The measurments would look wonky as hell. They need to be considered and measured as a whole. I see what your saying though. Do seperate amps get a hard ride ...hell yeah :D
 

Panelhead

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All my active monitors are old with simple Class AB amps. Some are chip, others discrete.
None have DSP, but all have low level filters. All of them sound good, and can play loud. Amazing how much clean output an active monitor can deliver.
Doubt the amps measure real well. We over think this a little.
 

Blumlein 88

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In the end distortion and other parameters in room is all that can matter. So good reason to think if you provide a signal to the speaker with distortion no more than -60 db and noise levels low enough not to be heard you are okay. Which would allow some pedestrian gear upstream to work just fine.
 

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DualTriode

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Hello,

Speaking of over scrutinized Power amplifiers.

I found this Crown ComTech 210 power amplifier FFT from a few months ago, if I recall correctly 5 Watts into 8Ohms. SINAD was mid or low 90’s.

If you only measured distortion and noise at the speaker output, amplifier distortion and noise would be your last concern.

Crown Comtech 210 FFT 6 28 2020.png


Thanks DT
 

AnalogSteph

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If you only measured distortion and noise at the speaker output, amplifier distortion and noise would be your last concern.
This thread would beg to differ:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/studio-monitor-speakers-without-hiss.11627/
It's a contentious topic. Pretty obvious once you do the math though. There's a reason why people driving 110 dB horns are generally using SET amps and other exotica with low gain and low inherent output noise level. Merely attenuating the signal ahead of a standard powe amp will no longer cut it with these.

In return, fairly high levels of low-order distortion (primarily 2nd and 3rd) are likely to be tolerable in amplifiers for active speakers.

Amplifiers used full-range tend to be less critical in terms of noise due to reduced sensitivity of entire passive speakers, however their intermodulation performance becomes substantially more critical due to the partitioning of the frequency range inside the speaker with little IMD between the ways. Something rated at 0.01% according to FTC standard (1 W up to nominal power, 20 Hz - 20 kHz) should be quite adequate though, even 0.03% if the amplifier is well-behaved. It's not quite as easy to achieve as you might think.
 
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DualTriode

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This thread would beg to differ:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/studio-monitor-speakers-without-hiss.11627/
It's a contentious topic. Pretty obvious once you do the math though. There's a reason why people driving 110 dB horns are generally using SET amps and other exotica with low gain and low inherent output noise level. Merely attenuating the signal ahead of a standard powe amp will no longer cut it with these.

In return, fairly high levels of low-order distortion (primarily 2nd and 3rd) are likely to be tolerable in amplifiers for active speakers.

Amplifiers used full-range tend to be less critical in terms of noise due to reduced sensitivity of entire passive speakers, however their intermodulation performance becomes substantially more critical due to the partitioning of the frequency range inside the speaker with little IMD between the ways. Something rated at 0.01% according to FTC standard (1 W up to nominal power, 20 Hz - 20 kHz) should be quite adequate though, even 0.03% if the amplifier is well-behaved. It's not quite as easy to achieve as you might think.

You completely missed the point or you are too clever by half.

If the speaker output is quiet, in simpler words any amplifier noise is not audible, no one will fault the amplifier.

Off topic but I will bite. SET, single end triodes are not inherently quiet by any standard. I have measured many of them. If a SET is used to drive a horn tweeter there will be a DC protection capacitor in line or a crossover capacitor in between. The power supply 60Hz and harmonic series will be filtered out, no hum or buzz noise. The low frequency 1/f noise will also be filtered out. If there is no audible hiss then all is good. That is the point, it is not the amplifier’s fault.

Speaking of 110dB horns, look at the horn / waveguide in the JBL M2 Monitor. JBL uses a voltage divider, a series resistor and a resistor in parallel with the D2 driver. The voltage divider is used to burn up a number watts to get the amplifier operating up in higher SINAD digits.

Also off topic, the program material will mask 2nd and 3rd Harmonics. There are AES papers on this topic.

Thanks DT
 

KaiserSoze

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One thing that is certain is that there isn't any reason for performing independent measurements of the dedicated amplifier in an active. This is logically absolute, because anything that matters will affect the sound from the speaker, which can be measured the same as with any speaker.

The more interesting question is the question you raise: Are standalone amplifiers getting too much scrutiny?

My opinion on this is probably not as well-informed as the opinions of others, but inclination is a qualified "yes". I say qualified because some of the measurements taken of amplifiers are not frivolous. As I was reading some of Erin's subwoofer testing the other day, it occurred to me that some of what nowadays applies in subwoofer measurements would be applicable to measurements of standalone amplifiers.

Ideally, amplifiers would be measured in a way such that the results are easily translatable to how the amplifier will affect the measurements taken of a speaker connected to the amplifier.

In my individual opinion, the most important part of the measurements of most all reasonably good amplifiers is the signal level for the onset of clipping. With most any reasonably good amplifiers, distortion is much, much lower than it typically is with most any speaker. But once the signal level exceeds the supply rails and it begins to clip, then the story changes in a hurry. It could almost be argued that what really matters is the rail voltage, so long as the amp doesn't overheat and go into protection when operated in a sustained manner at the onset of clipping, when the load is not lower than the specified load. (And out of practical necessity, the specified load is implicitly non-reactive.) Not to suggest that this would be sufficient in 100% of cases, since there are cheap amplifiers where the distortion at levels not approaching clipping will be audible. But my personal take on this, with which other people will not necessarily agree, is that with most any half-decent amplifier the distortion at levels not approaching clipping is so far below the distortion level of most any speaker that it doesn't matter because you'd never notice the difference. The analogy that I sometimes use is to take a piece of paper and mark all over it at random. Then throw in a couple of much smaller, random marks. You don't even notice the extra marks unless you know what they look like and are trying very hard to pick them out from all the other marks.

As concerns the signal level at the onset of clipping, it ideally should be specified on a logarithmic scale, i.e., in dB relative to the signal level corresponding to 1 Watt at the specific load. The specified load should be standardized, maybe at 6 Ohms. There should be a standard test to insure that at signal level 10% below the onset of clipping, the distortion is below a standardized threshold deemed to be insignificant. There should be a standard test to insure that at the onset of clipping, as stated in the manufacturer's specification, the amplifier can operate in a sustained fashion without triggering self-protection, in a room with standard temperature. If the manufacturers cannot agree on what the allowed level of distortion at signal level 10% below the onset of clipping should be, or on how it should be measured, it would be reasonable for there to be two, maybe even three standardized levels for amplifier quality, each with its own particular allowed level of nominal distortion and its own standard for taking the measurement needed to insure that the amplifier is in compliance with the quality level stated by the manufacturer.

The status quo is really pretty sad, because the manufacturers never even were able to agree to the practice of expressing amplifier on a logarithmic scale in lieu of a linear scale. They couldn't even manage this much. The typical consumer believes that a 75 Watt amplifier is too wimpy, and that a 120 Watt amplifier is a whole different thing. We know that the difference is only 2 dB, and that speakers vary by more than 2 dB in their sensitivity. The typical consumer has a strong preference for a 120 Watt amp over a 75 Watt amp, but when choosing speakers, pays little if any attention to the differences in sensitivity of the different speakers. I'm not suggesting that people buying speakers should pay closer attention to the differences in sensitivity, but that they should perhaps pay less attention to differences in the power of amplifiers when the ratio of the differences in power, linearly, is less than 2:1. The obvious way to correct this would be for the manufacturers to stop specifying amplifier power in linear terms. But the manufacturers on their own were never able to manage even this much.
 

KaiserSoze

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You completely missed the point or you are too clever by half.

If the speaker output is quiet, in simpler words any amplifier noise is not audible, no one will fault the amplifier.

Off topic but I will bite. SET, single end triodes are not inherently quiet by any standard. I have measured many of them. If a SET is used to drive a horn tweeter there will be a DC protection capacitor in line or a crossover capacitor in between. The power supply 60Hz and harmonic series will be filtered out, no hum or buzz noise. The low frequency 1/f noise will also be filtered out. If there is no audible hiss then all is good. That is the point, it is not the amplifier’s fault.

Speaking of 110dB horns, look at the horn / waveguide in the JBL M2 Monitor. JBL uses a voltage divider, a series resistor and a resistor in parallel with the D2 driver. The voltage divider is used to burn up a number watts to get the amplifier operating up in higher SINAD digits.

Also off topic, the program material will mask 2nd and 3rd Harmonics. There are AES papers on this topic.

Thanks DT

Too clever by 1.8 dB?
 

KaiserSoze

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Speaking of 110dB horns, look at the horn / waveguide in the JBL M2 Monitor. JBL uses a voltage divider, a series resistor and a resistor in parallel with the D2 driver. The voltage divider is used to burn up a number watts to get the amplifier operating up in higher SINAD digits.

Thanks DT

This being a real and important effect, it is pertinent to point to this effect as you have done. Entirely appropriate, and enlightening, but also deserving of mention is the effect of bringing the effective sensitivity of the upper frequencies ... hey, you know what I'm saying.
 
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DualTriode

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This being a real and important effect, it is pertinent to point to this effect as you have done. Entirely appropriate, and enlightening, but also deserving of mention is the effect of bringing the effective sensitivity of the upper frequencies ... hey, you know what I'm saying.

Yes that voltage divider is used to attenuate the output of a tweeter. Another name is L-Pad. Another use that does not often come to mind is damping. With filter theory in mind, both series resistance and parallel resistance are used to dampen impedance peaks.

With that thought look at the impedance curve of the D2 driver on a M2 horn / waveguide. It can use a little damping. Perhaps that is why JBL uses the L-Pad on the M2 monitor?

JBL D2 Driver M2 Horn wave guide Impedance Magnitude.PNG


Thanks DT
 

KaiserSoze

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Yes that voltage divider is used to attenuate the output of a tweeter. Another name is L-Pad. Another use that does not often come to mind is damping. With filter theory in mind, both series resistance and parallel resistance are used to dampen impedance peaks.

With that thought look at the impedance curve of the D2 driver on a M2 horn / waveguide. It can use a little damping. Perhaps that is why JBL uses the L-Pad on the M2 monitor?

View attachment 83944

Thanks DT

That is an interesting impedance graph. It would be interesting to see, visually, the effect of the filter network. Of course this can be done by calculation if the filter network is fully defined, and using the data in this graph.
 

jgazal

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I am failing to understand how to isolate the level of distortion introduced solely by driver in such acoustical measurement.
The only way I can think of doing a measurement of the distortion introduced solely by the driver would be with a laser vibrometer.
IMHO, measurements in an anechoic chamber of a integral loudspeaker would have more significance, because they are the summation of distortion from the cabinet, ports, crossover, drivers or radiators.
Compare, for instance, THD+N and deviation from linearity in NRC/Soundstage measurements (published on-line) of Kef R11 and Tannoy DC10A.
 
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DualTriode

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That is an interesting impedance graph. It would be interesting to see, visually, the effect of the filter network. Of course this can be done by calculation if the filter network is fully defined, and using the data in this graph.

I do not have the resistors in hand to do this test plot. I will sort what resistors are needed and order some.

Thanks DT
 
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