Request for comments: Wiim Ultra --> Minidsp Flex (all digital version) --> Wiim Vibelink Amp

[TomWe]

I have been using the following chain for more than 15 years:
Sonos Connect --> V-DAC --> Trends-Audio TA-10.2 SE --> Piega TS 5 (floorstanding speakers in a slim aluminum cabinet)

The system is getting on in years and a few acoustic peculiarities no longer suited me.

The first thing I did was to buy a Wiim Ultra to replace the Sonos Connect and V-DAC. I have calibrated the Wiim Room Correction with the Minidsp UMIK1 mic. The good result is that most of the things that annoyed me (bass modes, too much analytical treble) are more or less gone. The spatial imaging has won. Now I'm hooked and want to optimize the amp and integrate a Minidsp Flex to correct not only the frequencies but also the phase with Dirac Live. I'm hoping for even better spatial imaging. This holographic listening fascinates me.

Now I have set myself the following new chain as my goal:
Wiim Ultra --> Minidsp Flex (all digital version) --> Wiim Vibelink Amp --> Piega TS 5

I would like to drive optically (TOSLINK) from the Wiim Ultra via Minidsp Flex into the Vibelink Amp. Hence the fully digital version of the Minidsp Flex.

I am aware that the system has unnecessary redundancy. The Wiim Ultra is actually overkill, as its good DAC and PEQ DSP are no longer used at all. But I have it now. And I want the Minidsp Flex so that I can calibrate the room with Dirac Live. And since I'm aiming for the Wiim Vieblink with digital input, the fully digital version of the Flex (without built-in DAC) makes the most sense.

Will this all-digital chain work satisfactorily from your point of view? The following points are causing me headaches:

1. Differing bit rates: is it a problem that the Wiim Ultra with Tidal delivers HiRes streams at 192KHz via TOSLINK and the Minidsp Flex with Dirac Live “only” outputs 48kHz towards the Vibelink amp? Or does it all work perfectly even when switching to tracks with a different bit rate? Does it adjust automatically and imperceptibly?
2. Volume control: for reasons of convenience, I would like to control the volume on the Wiim Ultra. Does this work across the entire chain without any loss of quality?

Many thanks for your inputs on my questions

 

[Ismapics]

If @WiiM Team is listening, we need a balanced output Wiim Ultra. Also the Vibelink needed a Sub out.

 

[kyuu]

Also the Vibelink needed a Sub out.

That would make it a different product (by the time you get bass management implemented, may as well implement everything else and then you have a Wiim Amp). The sub out should be provided by an upstream device, such as a Wiim Ultra.

As long as the OP isn't planning on using a subwoofer, where the all-digital Flex would lack an analog output for a sub, I don't see any reason why the setup won't work as described. Although honestly I think the Flex can be upstream of the Wiim Ultra, which would then allow the Wiim's bass management to function eliminating that problem.

 

[terryforsythe]

Will this all-digital chain work satisfactorily from your point of view? The following points are causing me headaches:

1. Differing bit rates: is it a problem that the Wiim Ultra with Tidal delivers HiRes streams at 192KHz via TOSLINK and the Minidsp Flex with Dirac Live “only” outputs 48kHz towards the Vibelink amp? Or does it all work perfectly even when switching to tracks with a different bit rate? Does it adjust automatically and imperceptibly?

I don't have any experience with the Vibelink, but It should adjust automatically and imperceptibly. I would be quite surprised if it didn't.

1. Volume control: for reasons of convenience, I would like to control the volume on the Wiim Ultra. Does this work across the entire chain without any loss of quality?

That should work. I use a WiiM Pro Plus for volume control. I set my miniDSP HTx Flex somewhere around -15dB and leave it there.

 

[Ismapics]

That would make it a different product (by the time you get bass management implemented, may as well implement everything else and then you have a Wiim Amp). The sub out should be provided by an upstream device, such as a Wiim Ultra.

As long as the OP isn't planning on using a subwoofer, where the all-digital Flex would lack an analog output for a sub, I don't see any reason why the setup won't work as described. Although honestly I think the Flex can be upstream of the Wiim Ultra, which would then allow the Wiim's bass management to function eliminating that problem.

Well what are the DACs for anyway. The Vibelink has more power, it might as well should have been a Monoblock of just power amp. But when you add bass management using something like a Wimm Ultra or a Mini DSP you are looking art $700+. At that price point there are plenty of other options with integrated amps. If the Vibelink is for 2ch only, what near field or main system, purists. Really? Again they now how to do it and it was lazy on their part not to include a sub out.

 

[kyuu]

Well what are the DACs for anyway. The Vibelink has more power, it might as well should have been a Monoblock of just power amp. But when you add bass management using something like a Wimm Ultra or a Mini DSP you are looking art $700+. At that price point there are plenty of other options with integrated amps. If the Vibelink is for 2ch only, what near field or main system, purists. Really? Again they now how to do it and it was lazy on their part not to include a sub out.

The DAC is to allow for digital connections. You'd need more to implement DSP stuff like bass management than just a DAC.

Vibelink is quite obviously for those who already have equipment like a Wiim Ultra and want an amp to attach to it. Calling it "lazy" not to include a sub out is just weird. If you want that product, they already have it: Wiim Amp.

 

[kemmler3D]

Does it adjust automatically and imperceptibly?

It should, yes.

Does this work across the entire chain without any loss of quality?

Likewise, it should.

Despite the redundancy it seems like you have a solid approach to the setup. I am not sure phase correction will have a huge impact on the sound, audibility of that varies*, and is usually considered minor compared to frequency response, but I wish you the best of luck! If nothing else you'll have more bands of EQ to play with and dial things in.

*It's been pointed out that a lot of mixing / mastering processes introduce phase distortion that's comparable to what you'd see from the speakers themselves, or more. As such, if you are testing for realism that comes from phase correction, you might want to look for recordings that are relatively "raw" and close to a live performance, i.e. the phase relationship between the instruments and the space is kept intact. A multi-mic recording with ambience that's artificially added or where the phase is muddied from coming in through 3-4 different mics, possibly at different times, may not have a "realistic" phase to offer, regardless of how well your speakers are corrected. "Oldschool" recordings that are basically raw from a stereo pair (some classical recordings are like this, I think?) might be more revealing of (in)coherent phase response.

Also, welcome to ASR!

 

[Ismapics]

The DAC is to allow for digital connections. You'd need more to implement DSP stuff like bass management than just a DAC.

Vibelink is quite obviously for those who already have equipment like a Wiim Ultra and want an amp to attach to it. Calling it "lazy" not to include a sub out is just weird. If you want that product, they already have it: Wiim Amp.

I know that "The DAC is to allow for digital connections. You'd need more to implement DSP stuff like bass management than just a DAC." but that's exactly the point. They make it with a Digital board and did not bother with a simple sub out. Lazy for sure, as the Wiim Amp has less power.

 

[TomWe]

Many thanks for the friendly welcome and advice here!

Thank you all for the ideas and comments. This helps me a lot in my considerations and in recognizing possible alternatives. Don't we have a nice hobby?

I'm not planning to buy a subwoofer. That's why the topic is not important to me.

Before I decide whether the Minidsp Flex with Dirac Live makes that much difference to the PEQ DSP of the Wiim Ultra, I will first buy the free two-week trial license of Dirac Live and have the effect done by the Windows notebook. Then I can directly compare the (good) Ultra Room Correction with Dirac Live.

And thanks for pointing out that many recordings don't take phase so seriously. In fact, I have a few direct recordings that were made with a simple Jeklin disk. Breathtaking how good they are. This holographic music listening is exactly my thing.

 

[Bun-Bun]

That would make it a different product (by the time you get bass management implemented, may as well implement everything else and then you have a Wiim Amp). The sub out should be provided by an upstream device, such as a Wiim Ultra.

As long as the OP isn't planning on using a subwoofer, where the all-digital Flex would lack an analog output for a sub, I don't see any reason why the setup won't work as described. Although honestly I think the Flex can be upstream of the Wiim Ultra, which would then allow the Wiim's bass management to function eliminating that problem.

I wholeheartedly disagree a subout would make it a different product. They could have added a pure analog subout with this leaving crossover duties to the sub amp, which most have. Then any source can now enjoy 2.1 without any fancy DSP (AVR and such) in the signal chain.

Most dac's and streamers on the market (outside of the Wiim product stack) do not have a separate output for going to subs. I've been pulling my hair out trying to figure out how to get sub out of my DX3 Pro for a few weeks now (without resorting to an AVR). Anything that was on the market for this task is no longer available or costs more than my entire signal chain.

 

[kemmler3D]

I wholeheartedly disagree a subout would make it a different product. They could have added a pure analog subout with this leaving crossover duties to the sub amp, which most have. Then any source can now enjoy 2.1 without any fancy DSP (AVR and such) in the signal chain.

Most dac's and streamers on the market (outside of the Wiim product stack) do not have a separate output for going to subs. I've been pulling my hair out trying to figure out how to get sub out of my DX3 Pro for a few weeks now (without resorting to an AVR). Anything that was on the market for this task is no longer available or costs more than my entire signal chain.

If you're ok leaving the lowpass to the sub then why not just use a Y-cable?

In my setup I use a DX5, so the XLR is for the mains and the RCA is for the subs in a 2.2 configuration. With a DX3 it might be trickier depending on how you want to treat stereo.

 

[Bun-Bun]

If you're ok leaving the lowpass to the sub then why not just use a Y-cable?

In my setup I use a DX5, so the XLR is for the mains and the RCA is for the subs in a 2.2 configuration. With a DX3 it might be trickier depending on how you want to treat stereo.

Y cable doesn't sum L/R.

And many sub amps are difficult to drive with line out from preamps. You need the signal summer and boosted. Like what an AVR does.

EDIT: DX5s balanced outputs solve the driving problem. But not the summing.