This is 2022: Why still obsession with USB interface?

[radiogram]

Because it is a direct connection and does not depend on the existence/status/bandwidth of a network. My setup supports both and I can easily switch from one to the other with one of my DACs but the others simply plug-in via USB. No need for an intermediary "streamer."
NAS file storage is another story because NAS' are typically very noisy.

Kal - Thanks for your response, I follow your Stereophile reviews, My Point was about people who have a streamer with DLNA/UPNP capability but yet want to use USB because they are misinformed that steaming UPNP compromises SQ. They are nor not educated to know that streaming music file from their PC with UPNP is no different than transferring your Word Doc or Excel file between PCs on your home local LAN. The protocols used are same.

If you just have a DAC your point is valid. But if you have a streamer+DAC like Bluesound Node or Yamaha WXC-50 there is no need to use USB if you have access to Ethernet o Wifi. Today's Wifi Router are pretty fast.

 

[Fazeshift]

Undersrtood. But how does using UPNP streaming of your local content within your local LAN compromise your security? Does it steal your personal info, credit card details, bank info, etc? If so where does it send to? If so, I would like to know because I have been using UPNP for 4 years now and I want to make sure I have not compromised my Privacy. Thanks

UPNP is a protocol that is designed to poke holes in the firewall, to make home device communication with internet just work, without additional configuration. Unfortunately, it is full of flaws that have been exploited for over a decade. In my opinion, yes - any device with UPnP enabled compromises your entire LAN. It does not directly steal private data, but its flaws open the path in which that data can be exfiltrated from devices on your LAN. I won't speculate where it is sent, but there are state-sponsored malware groups out there.

I am not trying to make you paranoid - realistically the privacy risks of malware hidden in smartphone apps is higher. My point is, the security flaws of UPNP have been known for years, and new flaws are still being found. Here is a semi-recent example. People within the tech industry are going to be reluctant to use UPNP, and combined with interoperability complexities of DLNA, it makes an audio device much more difficult and costly to develop than something with USB. As someone else pointed out - a high-quality USB DAC is only a fraction of the cost of a what a streaming device costs.

If there were a more modern, secure and open standard (open-source, or at least license-free) for high-quality audio streaming, then I may agree with you.

 

[radiogram]

UPNP is a protocol that is designed to poke holes in the firewall, to make home device communication with internet just work, without additional configuration. Unfortunately, it is full of flaws that have been exploited for over a decade. In my opinion, yes - any device with UPnP enabled compromises your entire LAN. It does not directly steal private data, but its flaws open the path in which that data can be exfiltrated from devices on your LAN. I won't speculate where it is sent, but there are state-sponsored malware groups out there.

I am not trying to make you paranoid - realistically the privacy risks of malware hidden in smartphone apps is higher. My point is, the security flaws of UPNP have been known for years, and new flaws are still being found. Here is a semi-recent example. People within the tech industry are going to be reluctant to use UPNP, and combined with interoperability complexities of DLNA, it makes an audio device much more difficult and costly to develop than something with USB. As someone else pointed out - a high-quality USB DAC is only a fraction of the cost of a what a streaming device costs.

If there were a more modern, secure and open standard (open-source, or at least license-free) for high-quality audio streaming, then I may agree with you.

I am using a Private Lan in my Home network. None of this is exposed outside. My Server that has music files rendering via UPNP is strictly within my Private HomNetwork My UPNP renderer is also inside my Private Home LAN. So all these security concerns you raised do not apply as I am being a NAT'ed firewall

 

[Fazeshift]

I am using a Private Lan in my Home network. None of this is exposed outside. My Server that has music files rendering via UPNP is strictly within my Private HomNetwork My UPNP renderer is also inside my Private Home LAN. So all these security concerns you raised do not apply as I am being a NAT'ed firewall

These security concerns do apply.

If UPNP is enabled on your NAT firewall, devices on your LAN are vulnerable to attack. Additionally, if any other device on your LAN becomes compromised with malware, that malware has the ability to open inbound ports on your NAT firewall.

 

[radiogram]

These security concerns do apply.

If UPNP is enabled on your NAT firewall, devices on your LAN are vulnerable to attack. Additionally, if any other device on your LAN becomes compromised with malware, that malware has the ability to open inbound ports on your NAT fireUPNP is NOT ENABLED in my NAT firewall. There is no such thing. All this is Private not even my router knows.

 

[radiogram]

There is so such thing as enabling UPNP in router. This is garbage

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal - Thanks for your response, I follow your Stereophile reviews, My Point was about people who have a streamer with DLNA/UPNP capability but yet want to use USB because they are misinformed that steaming UPNP compromises SQ. They are nor not educated to know that streaming music file from their PC with UPNP is no different than transferring your Word Doc or Excel file between PCs on your home local LAN. The protocols used are same.

But that is not an argument for superiority over USB, only for its compentence.

But if you have a streamer+DAC like Bluesound Node or Yamaha WXC-50 there is no need to use USB if you have access to Ethernet o Wifi.

But if you have a really high quality, low distortion USB DAC, there is no need to add more hardware to the signal path.

Your opening statement implies that USB is inferior and archaic (which it is not). And, yes, network streaming is a useful alternative but it is not a replacement.

 

[bluefuzz]

if you have a streamer+DAC like Bluesound Node or Yamaha WXC-50 there is no need to use USB if you have access to Ethernet o Wifi

If you have a Bluesound Node then you have BluOS which is far better than any DLNA interface I've seen ...

I'm not sure I understand how you think USB is some kind of alternative to DLNA. USB, in this context, is how you connect a DAC to a streamer. If the DAC is built into the streamer then USB is obviously unneccessary. But that has nothing to do with how the streamer is accessing the files ... DLNA is how the streamer accesses the files wherever they are stored. Most streamers (e.g. Moode, Volumio, BluOS etc) will by definition have their own interface which, in my experience, is almost always faster, more reliable, and more feature rich, than using DLNA ...

 

[NiagaraPete]

I use both. USB from iPad, NAS RPI coaxial via DLNA. I think it’s a pretty common use.

 

[JeffS7444]

A networked solution can be overkill: Although my NAS incorporates upnp, I don’t always have the NAS powered up. Music player is a repurposed RPi + portable USB drive which would otherwise be going to waste. Works great with minimal infrastructure.

 

[Fazeshift]

There is so such thing as enabling UPNP in router. This is garbage

You don't have to take my word for it.
https://www.howtogeek.com/122487/htg-explains-is-upnp-a-security-risk/
https://lifehacker.com/disable-upnp-on-your-wireless-router-already-1844012366
If you search for your router model # and "disable UNPN" you will probably find instructions, as it is often enabled by default.

Home routers with UPNP have been around as long as USB. Home routers with UPNP and DLNA (for hosting media on a USB drive) have also been common for over 15 years.

 

[sarumbear]

If you just have a DAC your point is valid.

Bingo! Now you know as well why USB is still used.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I found this a fascinating thread. To use a USB-DAC in your main speaker--based audio, you need a "host" such as a PC/Pi reasonably adjacent to the Amplifier. For a desktop setup, this is easy, but for an "old-fashioned" HiFi rig, it may not be suitable. Streamers are a viable option under such circumstances.

 

[Berwhale]

There is so such thing as enabling UPNP in router. This is garbage

 

[HarmonicTHD]

1) UNPN/DNLA: for music streaming / listening (Quobuz, NAS) and convenience.
2) USB: for audio recording / mixing and latency minimization.

Both valid use cases and warranting different technologies. USB is great for the second use case.

 

[sarumbear]

There is so such thing as enabling UPNP in router. This is garbage

If you have a point to argue you should first study the market and avoid sounding like a fool.

Most routers have UPNP enable as an option.

 

[sarumbear]

I found this a fascinating thread. To use a USB-DAC in your main speaker--based audio, you need a "host" such as a PC/Pi reasonably adjacent to the Amplifier. For a desktop setup, this is easy, but for an "old-fashioned" HiFi rig, it may not be suitable. Streamers are a viable option under such circumstances.

Use a dedicated tablet and place it on your Hi-Fi box

 

[NiagaraPete]

There is so such thing as enabling UPNP in router. This is garbage

I have an AmpliFi router. Though I’d never use it.

 

[Propheticus]

The discussion is... peculiar and it seems any answer contradicting OP is unwanted and considered trolling (lol). The answer is on page one.

Only wanted to place a PSA around this:

I am using a Private Lan in my Home network. None of this is exposed outside. My Server that has music files rendering via UPNP is strictly within my Private HomNetwork My UPNP renderer is also inside my Private Home LAN. So all these security concerns you raised do not apply as I am being a NAT'ed firewall

NAT is not the same as a firewall! A side effect of NAT is indeed hiding Lan IP from being directly addressed outside in, but it does not mean you do not need to enable/implement a (router) firewall. Especially true in areas where IPv6 is being rolled out.

 

[Music1969]

This is 2022. I would like to understand why many are still obsessed with USB interface instead of using DLNA/UPNP over Ethernet or Wifi?

Regarding your "instead of DLNA/UPNP" and "this is 2022"

How do I send music from Apple Music, Amazon Music HD, Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz using DLNA/UPnP ?

With my iPad connected to my DAC with USB, it is possible. With UPnP, not possible...