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"The secret of big speakers"

Blumlein 88

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Interesting post - I've never tried this kind of experiment.

Are you sure that the "nasties" (by which I assume you mean audible artefacts) you're referring to in relation to high-Q ported speakers are really phase nasties and not corresponding frequency response nasties? All the research evidence to date would point very much to the latter.
No, I'm not sure. I know with a real ported under-damped speaker you get the FR changes as a result of the phase changes. Our ears don't much care about phase past 2 khz. They however can very much care about it below that frequency. They do once again stop caring so much somewhere below 80 hz.
 

Blumlein 88

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I'm trying to sum the math and mentally draw a frequency response graph to simulate what you did....

Something kind of like this?

66BA25fig3.jpg



Apropos of nothing, really, one of the best 2 ways I've ever owned / heard, within their limits, were the NHT Super Zeros.

1835956-pair-nht-super-zero-bookshelf-speakers-piano-black-100w.jpg



Super tiny, solid like a brick, sealed enclosure. Tiny 4.5" mid/"woofer" (for a pitiful definition of "woofer"), with a teensy 4.5" driver, laughable -3 dB point at 85 Hz, 2nd order crossover. But I swear to Max Planck, from the midrange up, and at low-modest volumes they crushed the vaunted LS 3/5A, and even gave some ML electrostats I owned a run for the money in the realm of detail.

I believe they had a bass Q of 0.5.

I tried many many many times to integrate them with a subwoofer (analog crossovers, class A/B amps), and never could get the system to gel. The differences in transfer functions was too obvious. So I sold them.

Should try to find another pair and do it with more modern DSP? Hmmm...

Not too different than your graph. All I did was put a 24 db/octave high pass filter in. Then manually on an EQ in Audacity draw a hump in at 80 hz and droop the same graph below 60 hz an extra amount. So it was the sum of those two procedures. I didn't save the result, but it was more or less the curve in green here.

1536640021512.png
 

andreasmaaan

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No, I'm not sure. I know with a real ported under-damped speaker you get the FR changes as a result of the phase changes. Our ears don't much care about phase past 2 khz. They however can very much care about it below that frequency. They do once again stop caring so much somewhere below 80 hz.

Still not sure I'm convinced ;)

A bass reflex enclosure shifts the phase by just one cycle (give or take). I'm not aware of any evidence that a human has ever been able to detect a single-cycle phase shift at any frequency, let alone find it non-preferable. Certainly not with speakers in a room.

Meanwhile we know that these (usually cheap) high-Q passive bass reflex systems have awful frequency response around the port tuning. Hard to believe it's the phase that's causing audible problems there.

But I am really hanging out for some further research on this. To my knowledge all the existing studies have tended to focus on the midrange where it is known (or at least believed) we are most sensitive.

Open to having my mind changed on this one but just haven't been able to find any convincing evidence at all yet... Please share if you know of any.

...PS: below 2KHz we're highly sensitive to inter-aural phase differences, but relatively oblivious to bi-aural phase shift, certainly in the one or two cycle range. That's an oversimplification ofc but it's about where it's at with the research IMHO.
 
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Blumlein 88

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Still not sure I'm convinced ;)

A bass reflex enclosure shifts the phase by just one cycle (give or take). I'm not aware of any evidence that a human has ever been able to detect a single-cycle phase shift at any frequency, let alone find it non-preferable. Certainly not with speakers in a room.

Meanwhile we know that these (usually cheap) high-Q passive bass reflex systems have awful frequency response around the port tuning. Hard to believe it's the phase that's causing audible problems there.

But I am really hanging out for some further research on this. To my knowledge all the existing studies have tended to focus on the midrange where it is known (or at least believed) we are most sensitive.

Open to having my mind changed on this one but just haven't been able to find any convincing evidence at all yet... Please share if you know of any.

...PS: below 2KHz we're highly sensitive to inter-aural phase differences, but relatively oblivious to bi-aural phase shift, certainly in the one or two cycle range. That's an oversimplification ofc but it's about where it's at with the research IMHO.

I don't disagree. I don't know. I know phase is mucked with a bit around those port tuning areas. I'll often say 85% of hifi is frequency response, so I wouldn't be surprised if that is the main thing we are hearing in small speakers. And simply altering EQ (aka FR) could be made to sound much like a small speaker.
 

KSTR

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A bass reflex enclosure shifts the phase by just one cycle (give or take). I'm not aware of any evidence that a human has ever been able to detect a single-cycle phase shift at any frequency, let alone find it non-preferable. Certainly not with speakers in a room.
Try this: Mix a sine and its first overtone (2nd harmonic) at equal volumes (or the overtone a bit lower, say -3 to -6dB) and offset the overtone by 0.5Hz, eg 80Hz and 160.5Hz. If we were insensitive to phase relationships, we'd just hear a tone and its ever so slightly detuned 2nd harmonic in a stable way, just like the stable display of spectrum lines an analyzer will display. But we don't, we hear a change of timbre with a 2 second repetition rate. Our ears aren't FFT analyzers with a magnitude-only reponse, down low we hear the actual waveforms.

Thats one reason why even moderate phase shifts in the bass to midrange frequences have audible effects (edit: as does polarity reversal). Timing is another. Once you've heard the difference between a 4th-order highpass @60Hz or so and the same highpass (magnitude-wise) but with a 2nd-order phase response (that is, a partial rollback of phase) with kick drums or upright bass notes you won't deny the effect of phase response any longer. The effect is heard on-top the room effects, even bad rooms don't swamp this, you hear that the timing coherence gets a bit better.
 
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March Audio

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I'm not sure about your example there, it's not actually a phase difference. You can't compare phase at two different frequencies. You have just mixed several tones together. By definition the waveform will have non steady relationship as the tones aren't integers of each other.

I see what you are saying, wave shape at a given instant could change, but I think the terminology and interpretation of effect is wrong.

Now you can try this in Adobe audition because it allows you to change the phase of a generated tone. Generates the signals as suggested and listen. Now move the phase of the harmonic. It will still sound the same because you are dealing with a repetitive sinus signal. All you will have done is move the absolute timing of when the signals maximally add and cancel. The ultimate wave shape over a period of time will remain the same.

So in my minds eye I can see a mechanism for altering the more transient of signals in their absolute timing, although I couldn't quantify how audible that could be, indeed if at all.

For the record I really don't like ported speakers, they just sound sloppy to me. My dsp speakers are sealed and the Acourate software makes them as phase linear as practicable. Audiophile friends tell me the bass and impact is tight as a nuns chuff.
 
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KSTR

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You can, if the rate is slow enough.
But of course you can use the exact harmonic and make a bunch of samples with any number of discrete phase offsets. Then you have the problem that switching between those samples gives strong glitches which are a bit disturbing for evaluation. Now you might use crossfades to have more benign transitions but you can mitigate this as well by programming the generator such as that it slowly and continuously adjusts the phase offset until the new target pase offset is reached, say in 30° steps, each step held for a about a 0.5s and a transition time of about 0.1 seconds to the next step. Using this and comparing it to a slowly continous phase shift reveals that the auditory result remains the same but the continuous shift is more convenient to use, especially when it is also programmed as a sweep going from low (30Hz) to high (300Hz) fundamentals so that you can test for the effect vs frequency.

Actually another test where this is revealed more clearly and without any doubt is making said bunch of discrete phase steps and switch the harmonic at 180° steps (by inverting it) within each step, using a crossfade on the harmonic. At one specific global offset the effect of the inversion is strongest, while 90° forth or back from that the effect is weakest. The global offset at which this will happen is determined by the phase reponse of the speakers use, if they are lin-phase (full-rangers, or phones) once you are beyond the phase rotation from the system highpass the global phase offset will stabilize at 0° and 180° degree positions where the effect is strongest.
 

Cosmik

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Isn't a port a delay as well as a phase shift, and with additional resonance? And how does the ported driver handle signals that are below resonance?

To me, it seems like much more than just a phase shift.
 

KSTR

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Any well-executed ported box measures perfectly in far-field as theory predicts, 4th-order final roll-off and a transition region that follows the f and q values of the two second-order transfer functions involved. Phase response and frequency response are tied together as must be the case for a minimum-phase system. It sounds and measures no different than a closed boxed with the same overall transfer function (that is, with added 2nd order highpass).

The point is "well-executed", of course, and that is not that easy. Ported designs are prone to suffer from
- air noise ("chuffing")
- midrange leakage if the driver goes high enough in frequency (2-way speaker)
- stimulated pipe resonances, again if the driver goes high enough in frequency (2-way speaker)
- dynamic instabilities and gross distortion, especially with large signal exitation when either driver or port are at or beyond their physical limits of linear operation and/or when the Helmholtz-Q is to high (for a variety of reasons this can happen).

Useless cone excursion below tuning is a bigger problem that in a closed box because the air spring force is missing, gives greater max excursion. That's why most active speakers have at least a 1st-order highpass when closed and 2nd order when ported, to avoid this excursion that gives rise to lots of IMD. This highpass of course introduces even more phase shift near the cutoff frequency....
 

maverickronin

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It depends on what type of filtering they use. IIR filters cause minimal latency but won't be phase linear. FIR filters can be PL but cause delay proportional to filter resolution and sample rate.

So an FIR has a fixed delay because it requires data from future samples? If the formula is (.5(filter length))/(sample rate) then upsampling as far as possible would seem to be a good way to reduce latency.

Also, what would be the audible differences between IIR and FIR filters?
 

andreasmaaan

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You can, if the rate is slow enough.
But of course you can use the exact harmonic and make a bunch of samples with any number of discrete phase offsets. Then you have the problem that switching between those samples gives strong glitches which are a bit disturbing for evaluation. Now you might use crossfades to have more benign transitions but you can mitigate this as well by programming the generator such as that it slowly and continuously adjusts the phase offset until the new target pase offset is reached, say in 30° steps, each step held for a about a 0.5s and a transition time of about 0.1 seconds to the next step. Using this and comparing it to a slowly continous phase shift reveals that the auditory result remains the same but the continuous shift is more convenient to use, especially when it is also programmed as a sweep going from low (30Hz) to high (300Hz) fundamentals so that you can test for the effect vs frequency.

Actually another test where this is revealed more clearly and without any doubt is making said bunch of discrete phase steps and switch the harmonic at 180° steps (by inverting it) within each step, using a crossfade on the harmonic. At one specific global offset the effect of the inversion is strongest, while 90° forth or back from that the effect is weakest. The global offset at which this will happen is determined by the phase reponse of the speakers use, if they are lin-phase (full-rangers, or phones) once you are beyond the phase rotation from the system highpass the global phase offset will stabilize at 0° and 180° degree positions where the effect is strongest.

I'm not sure I've quite understood you correctly here.

There's no doubt that we can easily detect phase as it's shifting ("phasing"). What's in doubt is the idea that we can detect a small (one cycle or less) constant phase shift ("group delay" is the better word here, I should have used that from the beginning) such as that produced by conventional crossovers or loudspeaker ports.

We are able to detect group delay above a certain threshold. But that threshold has never been demonstrated to be as low as the degree of group delay caused by ports. I'm not suggesting that new research might not revise the thresholds at some point, but there's no evidence of human's ability to hear this phenomenon, even though we can model and measure it.

Isn't a port a delay as well as a phase shift, and with additional resonance? And how does the ported driver handle signals that are below resonance?

To me, it seems like much more than just a phase shift.

A (group) delay and a phase shift are the same thing. If you mean "polarity reversal", then yes and no. The port inverts the back wave of the woofer, which is already out of phase with the front wave, resulting in a total phase shift of 360 degrees, or a group delay if you prefer, of X ms depending on the frequency at which this 360 degree shift occurs.

And yes, the port does do other things :) But this discussion began in relation to the question of whether the phase effects were audible.
 

Cosmik

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Any well-executed ported box measures perfectly in far-field as theory predicts, 4th-order final roll-off and a transition region that follows the f and q values of the two second-order transfer functions involved. Phase response and frequency response are tied together as must be the case for a minimum-phase system. It sounds and measures no different than a closed boxed with the same overall transfer function (that is, with added 2nd order highpass).
True for steady state waveforms, possibly. But what about transients?

It appears someone has been adding material to the Wikipedia page on bass reflex. (It wasn't me, I promise! :)). They seem to disagree with you when it comes to transients.
Bass reflex cabinets have relatively poor transient response, causing "smearing" or a longer resonance of the bass notes. Though the sound coming out of the port may have the same phase of that from the front surface, but it can never be at the same time, thus, the extended bass energy is really noise disguised as signal. The disguise works only when the sound is a continuous tone (one of the reason why some people prefer some particular kind of music for their audio system), but reveals itself most apparently at reproducing percussion sound. For the same reason, Linkwitz-Riley crossover has the same issue.
The low frequency driver in a resonant speaker enclosure system such as a ported cabinet or passive radiator cabinet cannot start and stop instantly like it can in a sealed-box cabinet. In order to achieve their bass output, ported speaker enclosures stagger two resonances. One from the driver and boxed air and another from the boxed air and port. This a more complex case than an equivalent sealed box. It causes increased time delay (increased group delay imposed by the twin resonances), both in the commencement of bass output and in its cessation. Therefore, a flat steady-state bass response does not occur at the same time as the rest of the sonic output. Instead, it starts later (lags) and accumulates over time as a longish resonant "tail". Because of this complex, frequency-dependent loading, ported enclosures generally result in poorer transient response at low frequencies than in well-designed sealed box systems.

The fight against frequency domain-centric audio continues...:)
 

andreasmaaan

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Sorry to turn this into a ported vs sealed discussion, but I have seen so many misunderstandings on so many forums (and now Wikipedia) regarding the phase behaviour of ports that I've generated some graphs to demonstrate what they actually do to the signal.

Here's the modelled frequency response, phase response, and group delay for an 8" Visaton woofer in a 60L ported box that is tuned to 35Hz:

1536670358878.png


Now here are same three graphs for the same woofer, now in a 60L sealed box, EQ'd to have the same frequency response as the ported box:

1536671323376.png


As you can see, the phase response / group delay of the two drivers are identical, even though one is a vented box and the other is a sealed box.

This is because literally nothing magically obnoxious happens to the phase response of a speaker when a port is added. The port simply takes the (already 180 degrees out of phase) back wave of the woofer in the inside of the box, inverts it (i.e. rotates it a further 180 degrees) and fires it out the port, and when the two sum outside the box we are simply left with a 360 degree phase rotation, exactly what we'd get with any old minimum phase 24dB/octave filter, whether digital, analogue electronic, or acoustic.

Indeed, the ported box is a 24dB/octave minimum phase filter!

So of course this is exactly what we get if we take a sealed box with its inherent 12dB/octave roll off (i.e. 180 degrees of phase shift) and add an additional 12dB/octave high pass filter like I did above (along with some minimum phase EQ in this case to allow the FRs to match), resulting in a combined 24dB/octave minimum phase filter with its expected 360 degrees of phase shift.

How on earth the idea of adding an extra 180 degrees to what was already a 180 degree phase rotation became so horrifying to so many audiophiles is beyond me.

The explanation must come down to a few things I think:
  • Misunderstandings about how a port works, especially the false belief that a port does something extra to the phase response beyond the minimum phase behaviour of the 24dB/octave high pass filter that it creates (and in some cases a failure to understand that sealed boxes do exactly half as much "damage" to the phase response anyway).
  • Dogmatic belief in "transient response" as central to signal integrity, contrary to known evidence regarding audibility thresholds (although I leave myself just a glimmer of doubt on this one as most studies have focused on midrange phase rotations).
  • Above all, plenty and plenty of examples of badly designed ports, especially those in boxes that should always have been too small for anything but sealed or passive radiator. These tend to turn out infinitely worse than badly designed sealed boxes because small errors or creativity result in big problems, and because there are many factors that need to be taken care of for a port to really behave properly.
Another thing that should be clear from this is that EQing or crossing over a ported speaker is no more complex with respect to phase than a sealed speaker. Of course you wouldn't do it near the port's tuning frequency - there's already a major 24dB/octave filter going on around there. But you wouldn't want to try to cross over any driver at any frequency where it's already in the middle of having a 24dB/octave filter applied to it.

(Incidentally, since we're dealing with nothing but minimum phase here, there'd be nothing wrong in theory with adding to the ported box's own 4th order crossover to create a higher order crossover, although I don't know why you'd want to do this unless desperate.)

And when you consider that, especially with active designs, properly porting the speaker will tend to gain you both significant bass extension and many dB of headroom (and by corollary, lower distortion at any given SPL), using well-designed ports starts to make a huge amount of sense.

Indeed, if you're planning to implement minimum phase EQ in the bass (e.g. for room correction), the same resulting frequency response, whether derived from a ported or sealed speaker in the first place, will have exactly the same phase response / group delay. The only difference will tend to be that the ported speaker plays lower in frequency and higher in level, but unlike a sealed speaker will need to be protected at frequencies below that.
 
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andreasmaaan

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BTW, take a look at the diaphragm displacement in each case and decide which speaker you'd prefer to have in your system:

1536684562505.png


Note 1: this is a woofer with an EBP of 82, so in theory a woofer that should perform well in either a ported or a sealed enclosure.

Note 2: FWIW this woofer's Xmax is 7mm.

EDIT: Xmax of this driver (AL200) is actually 7mm, not 5mm as originally stated.
 

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Soniclife

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How on earth the idea of adding an extra 180 degrees to what was already a 180 degree phase rotation became so horrifying to so many audiophiles is beyond me.
I used to be strongly anti-port, I'm agnostic now, but I think it's a lot to do with room gain and the smoother integration sealed gives you, plus the other reasons you list.
 

oivavoi

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I'm not sure I've quite understood you correctly here.

There's no doubt that we can easily detect phase as it's shifting ("phasing"). What's in doubt is the idea that we can detect a small (one cycle or less) constant phase shift ("group delay" is the better word here, I should have used that from the beginning) such as that produced by conventional crossovers or loudspeaker ports.

The Genelec guys recently did a study which showed that we can indeed detect group delay. I only skimmed through it. Not sure how the thresholds they detect relate to the group delay in common ported speakers. http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19404
 

andreasmaaan

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I used to be strongly anti-port, I'm agnostic now, but I think it's a lot to do with room gain and the smoother integration sealed gives you, plus the other reasons you list.

Yeh totally, if you're not gonna involve some kind of EQ or subs and need to rely on whatever bass response and roll-off the speaker naturally gives you, there's a better chance a sealed box will integrate well with your room. It's also gonna give you more flexibility in terms of sub crossover because a 12dB roll-off is easier to integrate into a typical 24dB woofer to sub filter than tbe 24dB roll-off of a ported box. But in most cases the port tuning frequency will be sufficiently low that this won't be a factor.

IMO apart from these two quite specific cases, the only potential advantage of a sealed box is the remote possibility that the threshold of audibility of phase rotation happens to lie somewhere between 1/2 cycle and 1 cycle at typical port tuning frequencies. But given what we know about sensitivity to phase in general, and given the fact that these frequencies are well below the Schroeder frequency in most rooms anyway, so these frequencies are ringing through the room for many times longer than the initial rise, the chances of this are very very low IMO.

The Genelec guys recently did a study which showed that we can indeed detect group delay. I only skimmed through it. Not sure how the thresholds they detect relate to the group delay in common ported speakers. http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19404

Thanks, will give that a read :)

And I hope I haven't seemed to imply that I think we can't detect group delay. We absolutely can. It's just the thresholds seem to be higher than what many assume.

But I'm glad to see a new study on this and will read it.
 
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