The Florida International Audio Expo 2024

[amper42]

There has been no follow up so I say no. Those of you going to these shows, should ask companies to send their products in for review.

Would love to see an ASR review of the new Soundfield Audio Titan 76" Horn Loaded Towers. They remind me of 1990 and the VMPS SuperTower designs.

Titan specs: 76" H x 12.5" W x 17.5" D
Weight 190lbs
Horn loaded planar line array 400Hz-20kHz with 12x 12" force cancelling cardioid subwoofers 400Hz- 20Hz.
Hypex Fusion FA503, 500w x2 + 100w HF DSP amplifier. Delayed (internal diffusion) rear and top firing direction horns for added ambience in room, adjustable levels to zero/off. Remote with volume and 3 presets, auto input selection, XLR, RCA, Toslink, Coax and AES/EBU.
Price $22k/pr available in May 2024. Custom finishes, custom built to order.

 

[MKR]

Subjectively, they are excellent. Only spent a short time with them first day of show, will take some more time listening today. See link below for thread where I will post some additional subjective impressions. But, given the size, definitely do not hold your breath for a review here on ASR, I do not see that ever happening. With that said I am sure Soundfield would be happy to provide some of their own measurements (not independent of course, but better than nothing… I myself will be asking for them)

End Game Speakers - The Quest Continues

Howdy folks! Well, after receiving several (very kind and supportive) DMs these past months since the original thread ($30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker) asking what was the status of my quest, if I had decided yet, was I going to start another thread, etc, etc ... Here we...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Purité Audio]

M these are cardioid too right, and the ’other’ Soundfields the open baffle design are they also cardioid.
No shortage of wooferage is there!
Keith

 

[MKR]

M these are cardioid too right, and the ’other’ Soundfields the open baffle design are they also cardioid.
No shortage of wooferage is there!
Keith

Yup, fully active variable directivity cardioid … 12 12” per tower ... and yes, the smaller 1212 OB is also cardioid. Though the upper coax is passive as these were designed for Orchard Audio to be able to show their amps at the show

 

[PenguinMusic]

Price wasn't too bad when they were released. Now..., no comment

Oh... Price increased a lot ?
What was the price when they were released ?

 

[truckers_atlas]

I drove down to Tampa again for this year's show. I spent about half my time in the headphone rooms, and the other half in the stereo rooms. Here's my show report and highlights from the stereo rooms I visited:

Perlisten had two rooms at the show: a traditional two-channel room, and a home theater room.

The home theater room (Atmos 5.2.2 with Perlisten speakers and subs powered by Primare electronics) was a big hit with attendees. The crowd was a lot more diverse on every metric than the median two-channel room at this show, and there was some fizz around the HT room. The vendors decided to have 6-8 people at a time max in there, for calibration and space reasons. The line that built up outside was a nice side effect for them.

The 2 Minutes, 15 Seconds scene from Top Gun: Maverick, which was one of dozens of movies available locally in the room, was played on audience request. I overheard that there was a verbal agreement between the show organizers and the vendor to keep the room under 90 dB SPL. This limit was easily passed, much to the frustration of the person whose job it was to monitor the levels. The room frankly sounded tighter than the theater in which I saw Top Gun: Maverick, which I remember as just being loud without the clean, deep bass and even tonal balance that this room had.

I was able to spend some quality time with the flagship Perlisten speakers, the S7t, which were in a traditional two-channel configuration. Dan Roemer was hanging out in the kitchen if you wanted to talk to him. I'd say these were my favorite speakers I was able to demo at the show, with their very even tonality, great bass extension without a subwoofer, and clean playback at high volumes.

A dealer based out of Melbourne, Deep Dive Audio, had a nice-sounding old-school system. The only non-acoustic records I saw in the bin were Steely Dan, and Dire Straits. Thus I did as so many audiophiles have done before me: I dragged Aja out of the bin for a system evaluation. While I thought the off-axis response of the speakers lent a bit of sharpness to Wayne Shorter's saxophone on the title track, the system sounded nice through the bass and mids.

There were KEF speakers on display this year, which was not the case last year, but I didn't get the chance to demo them. It was too loud for me to hang around and wait in the room to play something, and the room felt a bit too much like a car dealership.

I popped by the Orchard Audio room. The system was set up well, with an even response from the bass through the mids, and some extra juice in the treble. The amplifiers had no issues driving the speakers in this room, and in the other room with bookshelf speakers powered by Orchard amplifiers that I visited; I even had to ask the vendor to turn down the volume in the latter room.

 

[Se7enAtx]

Oh... Price increased a lot ?
What was the price when they were released ?

The price has gone up a staggering $2500 in 6 years despite the many platform updates the company has made over the years.

I laugh at these types of comments about price increases especially when you look at the price of everything else in the current economy.

Imagine the price of the 8c if the company maintained the same margins as traditional HIFI companies with 45-50 point margins at both the wholesale and again at retail.

The 8c is a bargain at 15k imo!

 

[Bjorn]

The price has gone up a staggering $2500 in 6 years despite the many platform updates the company has made over the years.

I laugh at these types of comments about price increases especially when you look at the price of everything else in the current economy.

In Norway the sale price has approximately doubled. We have 25% tax.

Imagine the price of the 8c if the company maintained the same margins as traditional HIFI companies with 45-50 point margins at both the wholesale and again at retail.

That's interesting since I know you offered 50% margin to retailers when the speaker was released.

 

[Se7enAtx]

In Norway the sale price has approximately doubled. We have 25% tax.

That's interesting since I know you offered 50% margin to retailers when the speaker was released.

In the US that's certainly not the case, especially after importation costs.

We can't offer anything like 50% to our dealers and where we do have dealers, they get most of the margin, but in turn ask that they support their clients with setup and tuning, which is too much work for most, who would rather advertise on a website and dropship. This is largely why we changed the US dealer map. Too many customers weren't getting the support that we'd expect them to.

 

[Anton D]

Would love to see an ASR review of the new Soundfield Audio Titan 76" Horn Loaded Towers. They remind me of 1990 and the VMPS SuperTower designs.

View attachment 350507

View attachment 350508

View attachment 350509

Titan specs: 76" H x 12.5" W x 17.5" D
Weight 190lbs
Horn loaded planar line array 400Hz-20kHz with 12x 12" force cancelling cardioid subwoofers 400Hz- 20Hz.
Hypex Fusion FA503, 500w x2 + 100w HF DSP amplifier. Delayed (internal diffusion) rear and top firing direction horns for added ambience in room, adjustable levels to zero/off. Remote with volume and 3 presets, auto input selection, XLR, RCA, Toslink, Coax and AES/EBU.
Price $22k/pr available in May 2024. Custom finishes, custom built to order.

Those look way cool!

How did they sound?

 

[Bjorn]

In the US that's certainly not the case, especially after importation costs.

We can't offer anything like 50% to our dealers and where we do have dealers, they get most of the margin, but in turn ask that they support their clients with setup and tuning, which is too much work for most, who would rather advertise on a website and dropship. This is largely why we changed the US dealer map. Too many customers weren't getting the support that we'd expect them to.

For your information, I was offered to be a retailer when the speaker was about to be released. I know well what margin I was offered. I declined because I was designing my own speakers and I had trouble in good concience selling what I considered to be a high price for such a small speaker with a fairly simple box design.

In 2017 the sale price including VAT in Norway was 95 000 NOK. That can be seen here:

Dutch & Dutch

Vi har den glede av å introdusere et nytt tilskudd til vårt utvalg av innovative høyttalere. Det gleder oss å kunne tilby et beredere utvalg i tillegg til fantastiske Kii THREE. Dutch & Dutch er en ny aktør med noen veldig spennende produkter. Dutch & Dutch 8c - Den komplette stativhøyttaler...

www.hifisentralen.no

They were also on sale at a lower cost. Like below at 84.990 NOK.

Dutch & Dutch 8c Kampanje

Lydcompagniet presenterer D&D og Cocktail Audio Super-bundles Som flere kunder har fått oppleve i det siste, er det lang ventetid på Dutch & Dutch 8c. Etterspørselen er større enn produksjonsevnen på tross av gjentatte økninger i produksjon. Det positive er utrolig flotte tilbakemeldinger...

www.hifisentralen.no

Today, the sale price in Norway is 199 000 NOK. So the price has more than doubled here.

Dutch & Dutch 8c

Dutch & Dutch 8c aktiv stativhøyttaler med innebygget subwoofer der målet vært å utvikle et system som er designet for å integreres sømløst i rommet.

www.thestereoshop.no

 

[Se7enAtx]

For your information, I was offered to be a retailer when the speaker was about to be released. I know well what margin I was offered. I declined because I was designing my own speakers and I had trouble in good concience selling what I considered to be a high price for such a small speaker with a fairly simple box design.

In 2017 the sale price including VAT in Norway was 95 000 NOK. That can be seen here:

Dutch & Dutch

Vi har den glede av å introdusere et nytt tilskudd til vårt utvalg av innovative høyttalere. Det gleder oss å kunne tilby et beredere utvalg i tillegg til fantastiske Kii THREE. Dutch & Dutch er en ny aktør med noen veldig spennende produkter. Dutch & Dutch 8c - Den komplette stativhøyttaler...

www.hifisentralen.no

They were also on sale at a lower cost. Like below at 84.990 NOK.

Dutch & Dutch 8c Kampanje

Lydcompagniet presenterer D&D og Cocktail Audio Super-bundles Som flere kunder har fått oppleve i det siste, er det lang ventetid på Dutch & Dutch 8c. Etterspørselen er større enn produksjonsevnen på tross av gjentatte økninger i produksjon. Det positive er utrolig flotte tilbakemeldinger...

www.hifisentralen.no

Today, the sale price in Norway is 199 000 NOK. So the price has more than doubled here.

Dutch & Dutch 8c

Dutch & Dutch 8c aktiv stativhøyttaler med innebygget subwoofer der målet vært å utvikle et system som er designet for å integreres sømløst i rommet.

www.thestereoshop.no

Thanks for sharing. The introduction price here in the US was 12.5K and is 14,950 now.

When I look at other HIFI products, it always seems like they're introducing a 0.2 model or an incrimental esthetic update to justify pricing increases. In the US, we're doing everything we can to resist that approach.

 

[orchardaudio]

I popped by the Orchard Audio room. The system was set up well, with an even response from the bass through the mids, and some extra juice in the treble. The amplifiers had no issues driving the speakers in this room, and in the other room with bookshelf speakers powered by Orchard amplifiers that I visited; I even had to ask the vendor to turn down the volume in the latter room.

Thanks for stopping by.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

In Norway the sale price has approximately doubled. We have 25% tax.

That's interesting since I know you offered 50% margin to retailers when the speaker was released.

Hi Bjorn.

I don't usually respond directly to posts like yours in this thread. However, you are using private information you received as a prospective dealer to attack a now competitor on a public forum. It's an unwritten rule that discount percentages disclosed in private communication between a manufacturer and a prospective dealer are treated confidentially. This is the first time I see our dealer margins so openly discussed by a competitor with inside knowledge, and I feel I have to share my perspective.

For the record, I'm happy to share publicly that we never offered 50% margin to dealers. However, regarding exact percentages of discount offered to whom and when, I choose not to divulge further.

You reached out to me in 2017, before the Dutch & Dutch 8c was available on the market. I was delighted to see your message, because I had known you for years from several forums and I greatly respected you. I would have loved for you to become a Dutch & Dutch partner, but things ultimately didn't work out.

Dutch & Dutch was a young company then, and we didn't have much experience with running an audio manufacturing company. We wanted to become a brand that was sold all across the world, and therefore we decided to invest in developing a sales network of dealers and distributors. When you and I spoke about these things, we were still very much in the process of trying to figure out how the distribution game was played, including how much discount we had to offer distributors and dealers. We made mistakes and we've learned our lessons.

Besides having to learn how the distribution game is played, at that time we greatly underestimated our own costs. As a result of that, we priced the 8c's too low and we sold them at too low a margin for us. This was not sustainable, and thus we increased the price quite early on. As a side note, it's funny for me to see many new manufacturers making the same mistake and following the same path of increasing their prices shortly after entering the market. Besides that early pricehike, the currency debasement of the covid years forced us to increase prices again, as happened with pretty much everybody else in our industry as well.

Since our conversations, you have started your own loudspeaker company, Vera Audio. Your business model is direct sales. It is of course in your business interest to explain to people that with the direct sales model, it is possible to sell a product at a lower price than if there are sales channels between the manufacturer and the customer. I fully support your approach of communicating that to the world, in general terms. I read your topic about Vera Audio here on ASR and I think you are indeed offering an incredible speaker at a price point that would be impossible if you sold through a retailer network. More power to you! However, I'd like to ask you to refrain from these kinds of direct attacks on Dutch & Dutch, particularly using information you received in the context of becoming a Dutch & Dutch sales partner.

With the product you have at this price point, you don't need it.

Very best,

Martijn Mensink

 

[prestigetone]

Hi Bjorn.

I don't usually respond directly to posts like yours in this thread. However, you are using private information you received as a prospective dealer to attack a now competitor on a public forum. It's an unwritten rule that discount percentages disclosed in private communication between a manufacturer and a prospective dealer are treated confidentially. This is the first time I see our dealer margins so openly discussed by a competitor with inside knowledge, and I feel I have to share my perspective.

For the record, I'm happy to share publicly that we never offered 50% margin to dealers. However, regarding exact percentages of discount offered to whom and when, I choose not to divulge further.

You reached out to me in 2017, before the Dutch & Dutch 8c was available on the market. I was delighted to see your message, because I had known you for years from several forums and I greatly respected you. I would have loved for you to become a Dutch & Dutch partner, but things ultimately didn't work out.

Dutch & Dutch was a young company then, and we didn't have much experience with running an audio manufacturing company. We wanted to become a brand that was sold all across the world, and therefore we decided to invest in developing a sales network of dealers and distributors. When you and I spoke about these things, we were still very much in the process of trying to figure out how the distribution game was played, including how much discount we had to offer distributors and dealers. We made mistakes and we've learned our lessons.

Besides having to learn how the distribution game is played, at that time we greatly underestimated our own costs. As a result of that, we priced the 8c's too low and we sold them at too low a margin for us. This was not sustainable, and thus we increased the price quite early on. As a side note, it's funny for me to see many new manufacturers making the same mistake and following the same path of increasing their prices shortly after entering the market. Besides that early pricehike, the currency debasement of the covid years forced us to increase prices again, as happened with pretty much everybody else in our industry as well.

Since our conversations, you have started your own loudspeaker company, Vera Audio. Your business model is direct sales. It is of course in your business interest to explain to people that with the direct sales model, it is possible to sell a product at a lower price than if there are sales channels between the manufacturer and the customer. I fully support your approach of communicating that to the world, in general terms. I read your topic about Vera Audio here on ASR and I think you are indeed offering an incredible speaker at a price point that would be impossible if you sold through a retailer network. More power to you! However, I'd like to ask you to refrain from these kinds of direct attacks on Dutch & Dutch, particularly using information you received in the context of becoming a Dutch & Dutch sales partner.

With the product you have at this price point, you don't need it.

Very best,

Martijn Mensink

I don't have any side here, but isnt D&D going the way of direct sales? You've removed a lot of big US dealers from the chain. I hope companies like yours with a great product offering could be direct to consumer and lower prices. While prices can and do go up, it's also nice when they go down too.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

Before the internet era, the predominant sales model for global audio manufacturers was vertical, with the manufacturer at the top, selling products to importers/distributors, who then supplied a network of dealers, ultimately reaching the end customers. While this model still exists, we now observe the emergence of more horizontal models, such as direct sales from manufacturers to dealers or customers, or distributors selling directly to end customers.

In the early days of Dutch & Dutch, we adhered to the traditional vertical sales model in most markets, unaware of better alternatives. While this model may suit simple-to-use commodity products, it falls short for a brand like Dutch & Dutch due to the advanced nature of the 8c. What sets the 8c apart from conventional loudspeakers is RoomMatching. RoomMatching encompasses a suite of complementary technologies designed to adapt the 8c to the specific acoustics of the listening environment. To fully unlock the potential of your 8c speakers, proper RoomMatching setup is indispensable. Therefore, unlike many other audio products, Dutch & Dutch products require extensive pre-sales consultation, involved installation support, and robust after-sales service.

To ensure these critical aspects, we, as the manufacturer, must take charge of the entire customer experience. Recognizing that many Dutch & Dutch customers may lack the necessary expertise for precise setup, including in-room acoustic measurements with REW and defining a RoomEQ target curve, we provide comprehensive training to our dealers to ensure the optimal setup and performance of the 8c.

In Europe, our primary sales channel is through a select dealer network. While we previously engaged distributors in various countries, we transitioned away from this model for the reasons outlined above. Presently, when prospects express interest in purchasing or a demonstration, we direct them to the nearest dealer. We greatly value the role of our dealers in providing geographical coverage, as well as the richer level of support offered, leveraging their demo rooms and local presence. However, should the prospect prefer to purchase directly from us, that option is available. In that case, we provide them with what we call a Remote Commissioning Service (we get on a video call and teamviewer with the customer to help them set up the 8c's in their room). In any case, we strive to maintain neutrality and empower prospects to choose their preferred buying channel.

In the United States, we used to have numerous dealers in both the hifi and pro sectors. While our initial distributor made significant strides in the early years, personal challenges led to a decline in business focus over time, resulting in subpar customer support by Dutch & Dutch standards. In 2023, under Bill's leadership, we decided we had to revitalize our operations, emphasizing quality over quantity and reaffirming the core values of the Dutch & Dutch brand. This commitment entails providing exceptional pre-sales support, ensuring proper RoomMatching for every 8c speaker, and delivering outstanding after-sales service.

Initially, Dutch & Dutch North America primarily engaged in direct sales. Going by the feedback we are getting from customers, Bill and Gabriel (Se7enAtx) have been doing an incredible job. We are now gradually expanding our sales network, prioritizing partners who share our commitment to customer satisfaction, and who understand the unique qualities that define Dutch & Dutch. And this brings us full-circle, because Unique Audio is one such retailer, and they recently showcased Dutch & Dutch products at the Florida International Audio Expo.

 

[prestigetone]

Awesome answer. I never had anything but great interactions with my Dutch & Dutch service. Any chance you can tell us what is coming down the pike in terms of the successor or the larger model that @MKR keeps mentioning. It doesn't seem like so much of a secret at this point.

 

[Jimster480]

I went back to the show on Sunday and went into Geshelli as well as Woo & Moon. We skipped almost every speaker room minus a few since speakers aren't our thing. Surprisingly the Geshelli speaker room actually was quite good but it might have also had to do with their selection of music being much better. Many rooms had very weird music playing on their speakers.... my wife came with me on Sunday and she wasn't happy with most of the music either. The speaker rooms we stepped into were playing Rock or Jazz or classical and my wife sat to take a listen. She was pretty surprised about the prices of most of the setups though.
With that being said; there were a few nice sets of speakers around for what I would consider a reasonable price.
Honestly anything with the $10k+ price tag is just to me; too insane for what you get. I'm sure people on this forum will disagree because we are paying for the engineering time and the costs of moving around such big products in this world. However like everything else; I just don't see where the "value" is here.
The setup in the Geshelli room would cost around $7k to implement including the Amp & speakers (Mofi SourcePoint 10). That seems like something reasonable for a whole house setup.

 

[MattHooper]

Thanks for those posting pictures and/or impressions of the show! I look forward to more!

(Damn I miss going to audio shows, one of my favourite things in the world to do).

 

[amirm]

Would love to see an ASR review of the new Soundfield Audio Titan 76" Horn Loaded Towers.

I will never test anything from that company. The owner/designer is one of the most miserable people I have had the displeasure of interacting with across multiple forums for many years. I personally wouldn't buy a chewing gum from him. You should ask Erin to test his stuff.