The Case For AVRs... Am I missing something???

[Spkrdctr]

I was just tonight listening to my AVR in stereo/direct mode vs surround. The surround music mode beats the pants off of stereo. Not even close. Stereo sounds old. It is ok and sounds like stereo, the surround music just fills the room with great music that just sounds so much belter. Luckily surround music is coming in a big way. Stereo is just like cassette tapes, old, outdated and just on its way out. I am very sorry to bring this bad news to the discussion. Long live good surround music!

 

[billyjoebob]

Well it is different because to do a really good job you need delay control and room correction.

Without that, at least use a device like a MiniDSP 2x4.

Like I said in the initial post.
I do not notice any difference with or without audyssey.
As far as the sub goes.

 

[krabapple]

Alot of talk about "needing" an AVR for proper sub integration.
It really depends on the sub that is being integrated.
I use on older preamp, I simply split the pre-outs with an old fashioned y cable and run the RCA's to the sub. Then set the cross over frequency on the sub and dial it in to where I "feel" it then just back the level off a tad till it disappears.
Easy peasy!
My .02c is not much different from my old Marantz 7015 w/audyssey.

That's not going to adjust delay, which is part of integration, nor compensate for modal dips at the LP, which is part of room EQ. And you're duplicating bass in the L/R.

 

[krabapple]

When I first got the Revel F328Be I powered them with the Denon 4700. I calibrated the F328Be with Audyssey app, They sounded horrible after Audyssey screwed with the FR. Turning off default MRC made little difference and limiting Audyssey to less than 500Hz was not much better. The F328Be has a wonderful downward sloping curve and Audyssey flattens everything which kills the beautifully designed F328Be crossover. REW displayed the difference before and after Audyssey. It was significant. The original slope was missing. I ran the F328 in Pure Direct Stereo Mode which sounded better but it still didn't have the clarity I was looking for.

I called Benchmark and talked to their tech. I explained I was using the 4700 with a Purifi amp and wondered if the Benchmark amp might offer the sound I was looking for. He believed I would notice more difference getting the Benchmark LA4 and taking the F328Be off the Denon receiver. He believed the Denon was the limiting factor. I though about his comments and did some research. The ADI-2 had a powerful preamp and a good DAC so I thought I would try it. When the ADI-2 arrived I was totally acclimated to the Denon in Pure Direct mode. I plugged in the ADI-2 and a few things happened.
1. The clarity with the F328Be was there. It was like a thin sheet was lifted from the speakers. The sound was awesome!
2. The ADI-2 had a HUGE amount of additional gain for driving the Purifi amp. It opened up the spigot like I had never heard before. The Denon couldn't come close to driving the Purifi amp like the ADI-2.

I A/B'ed the two setups several times by switching back and forth between the two. The clarity of sound with the ADI-2 was exactly what I was looking for and cost less than the Denon 4700. I still try the F328BE on the Denon 4700 now and again but my preferred configuration continues to be the ADI-2/Purifi and F328Be. Your taste may be differ but I certainly found what I was looking for.

These are exactly the sorts of 'sighted' comparisons that are so common and so dubious. Veils lifted! Spigots opened!

With proper controls -- level matching, blinding -- there's a very good chance all of these revelatory improvements would simply disappear.

 

[krabapple]

I was just tonight listening to my AVR in stereo/direct mode vs surround. The surround music mode beats the pants off of stereo. Not even close. Stereo sounds old. It is ok and sounds like stereo, the surround music just fills the room with great music that just sounds so much belter. Luckily surround music is coming in a big way. Stereo is just like cassette tapes, old, outdated and just on its way out. I am very sorry to bring this bad news to the discussion. Long live good surround music!

Well, it does kinda depend on how you do it.

If you're using some mode like 'all channel stereo' for example, or a 'room emulator; setting like 'Jazz Club' or 'Arena' ...well, if you like it, you like it, but it's not what high-quality upmixing does.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Just to chime in on this - I've been using a Marantz NR1607 AVR as my stereo amplifier for the past five years, for the following reasons:

HDMI switching - I have a lot of HDMI sources (bluray, playstation 3, PS4, PC, Switch) so having 7 HDMI ports is fantastic, and not something I've seen on any stereo receivers. Also decent-quality up-sampling of sources to 4k, which is nice.

Room correction - the NR1607 has Audyssey room correction, which is handy.

Bi-amping - I can re-assign the rear channel amplifiers in the NR1607 to instead act as second amplifiers for my front channels. As I have fairly insensitive full-range floor standing speakers, this is a godsend.

Moving soon and building a proper surround setup for the new house, and the NR1607's going to be moved upstairs as our bedroom receiver/HDMI switch driving a pair of bookshelf speakers, but the AVR features will still be used and appreciated.

 

[Sal1950]

or a 'room emulator; setting like 'Jazz Club' or 'Arena'

LOL, does any modern AV gear still include that awful stuff?
I find that the latest upmixers from Dolby, DTS, and Auro can all do a respectable job with music. The best being completely source dependent, I currently will switch between the 3 with each change of album to determine which I like the best. This is a totally subjective deal, where for me one of them just seems to "fit" and in most cases the differences are quite a bit more than subtle.
These are exciting times to be involved in multich music. More new music is getting released every day, with streamers leading the way with Atmos files. But even if you don't have a Atmos rig, it will revert back to it's 5.1 base and give you a great standard surround experience.
Be there or be square.

 

[Newman]

LOL, does any modern AV gear still include that awful stuff?

I don't think that is a balanced comment on the legitimate work that Yamaha did in developing their sound field modes.

Whether or not you like them is up to you, but it is a mistake to mock them so dismissively.

 

[Descartes]

Multichannel audio when well recorded is fantastic sounds like you’re at the concert hall!
Try any Blu-ray from 2L.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't think that is a balanced comment on the legitimate work that Yamaha did in developing their sound field modes.

Whether or not you like them is up to you, but it is a mistake to mock them so dismissively.

Never had s Yamaha so I unfair comment on theirs.
But do current Yamaha's still use them?

 

[Sal1950]

Multichannel audio when well recorded is fantastic sounds like you’re at the concert hall!
Try any Blu-ray from 2L.

Good stuff but I prefer Yello - Point, Booka Shade - Galvany Street or Steven Wilson - The Future Bites.
Incredible immersive recordings.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Never had s Yamaha so I unfair comment on theirs.
But do current Yamaha's still use them?

Yes Sal they have some different sound fields but you don't have to use them. 2 channel mode is 2 channels with sub, then you can go all speakers (5,7,9) in a stereo mode. Then you get "Music Video" which is full DSP control. Now, you can go in and tweak the DSP settings for music and movies but I find it takes some serious time to not mess it up. For movies, I use "Sci-Fi, and/or Standard depending on which sounds better. There are others but I don't care for them. and never use them. I only ever use Sci-fi or Standard for movies and 7 channel stereo (but I only have 5.1) and Music Video for music. So two settings for music and two for movies. That's it. Easy to use and does the job very well. I'm not power limited as I listen at MAX 85 db. I do have my crown amp on my L/R Martin Logans and if I do put it in the crappy sounding 2 channel mode, the crown will give the Martin Logans all they can handle. Ears will blow before the speakers! So my Yamaha only powers the center and two surrounds. Basically not much, just three speakers so the 100 watts per channel is way more than I will ever use with those three speakers. It is just so easy with surround to set up and enjoy music and movies compared to the hassles of two channel outdated stereo. I guess two channel guys are the modern version of cassette tape guys. I was going to say vinyl but I think good vinyl probably sounds pretty good on a surround system. I didn't want to slam the vinyl guys for no reason, but those stereo 2 channel guys? Dinosaurs!!

Of course I did so some gentlemanly ribbing on the 2 channel guys. Just all in good fun, no serious slamming at all........

 

[Newman]

@Spkrdctr I was referring more to Yamaha’s venue emulation sound fields (Hall in Munich, Church in Freiberg, etc), not so much their content-type sound fields (Music Video, Sci-Fi Movie, etc).

 

[Spkrdctr]

@Spkrdctr I was referring more to Yamaha’s venue emulation sound fields (Hall in Munich, Church in Freiberg, etc), not so much their content-type sound fields (Music Video, Sci-Fi Movie, etc).

Yes, Yamaha did so some good work on those venue sounds. I like the Yamahas overall, I just wish they had more power and a fairly top shelf DAC (90 or higher) on the ASR rating. Still they sound very good as is.

 

[krabapple]

LOL, does any modern AV gear still include that awful stuff?

They certainly do. For example search 'Jazz' in this user manual for a $4300 2021 Denon AVR
file:///C:/Users/sulli/Downloads/Denon-AVC-X8500HA-Owners-Manual-ENG.pdf

 

[Sal1950]

They certainly do. For example search 'Jazz' in this user manual for a $4300 2021 Denon AVR
file:///C:/Users/sulli/Downloads/Denon-AVC-X8500HA-Owners-Manual-ENG.pdf

So they do, looks like that Denon offers a Jazz Club and Rock Arena.
Have you listened to them?
Don't know what the more modern options sound like, but back in the "good ole days" the ones I've experienced were just horrid mixtures of various applications of reverb and phase trickery. LOL

In any case once we start talking about upsampling 2 channel to 5.1 or whatever, it all comes down to subjective personal preferences. Even with the Dolby, DTS, and Auro options we have, who's to say which one is best except the individual listener. We pick the one we like with any particular source and run with it.

 

[Sal1950]

Yes Sal they have some different sound fields but you don't have to use them. 2 channel mode is 2 channels with sub, then you can go all speakers (5,7,9) in a stereo mode. Then you get "Music Video" which is full DSP control. Now, you can go in and tweak the DSP settings for music and movies but I find it takes some serious time to not mess it up. For movies, I use "Sci-Fi, and/or Standard depending on which sounds better.

Yep, but not quite what I was referencing. I was thinking more along the lines of the old "hall" sound modes.
But I guess when it comes down to it, its all the same shit, only the approach and names have changed over the decades. I don't use any of the crap (music, movie, sports, etc; FR / Video color balance - alterations), I only pick one of the three codec's to upsample 2ch to my 5.2.4 speaker layout

 

[C-H]

The case for an AVR in a 2ch Stereo setup is strong.
Room EQ (Audyssey MultEQ in my case) is a potential game changer for extracting the best from your speakers. I'm sold on it after scoring an older Onkyo with MultEQ.