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The Case Against OLED

Sal1950

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Interesting to note that it's predecessor, a 36" Sony Trinitron, also lasted about 20 years....tho disposing of that 200lb monster was a chore (the Panasonic plasma is just under 100lbs).
Awesome, I know it's a roll of the dice but I never seem to get the luck of a long lived display.
I'll take that back, I did have a 35" Mitsubishi CRT that ran for close to 15 years I think it was.
Another monster that was over 200lbs. After I finally got it out to the ally, it wasn't more than a couple hours
before some punk kid came along and just "had" to bust the CRT. Damn near made me cry, I really loved that TV.
I was shocked by how thick the glass was on the tube, main reason it was so heavy.
Then I was really stuck, it was a bad time for me to get another TV, the flat panels were still new on market and way
too expensive for my wallet. That left me with the rear projectors, I got a 55' Toshiba that completely sucked in picture quality next to the 35 CRT it replaced. When I retired and moved to FL, I just left the heavy SOB sitting in the living room.
 

Chrise36

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I wonder whether TV blind tests suffer from the same biases as audio blind tests. In audio, louder sounds better. With TV's, maybe brighter looks better? Or more saturated looks better? If all the TV's are colour calibrated (the TV equivalent of speaker correction), does this narrow the result?
They try to calibrate them on the same levels and compare in the same formats they support regarding Dolby Vision HDR+ etc.
 
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JSmith

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calibrate
I can't see in that article whether they calibrated the panels or not?
In the HIFI.DE test laboratory we work largely with colorimeters and image generators, measure colors and contrasts, and collect verifiable data. And we watch a lot of test videos and film scenes before we rate a television. Because in the end it is the visible quality that counts.

In our test event, nothing was measured or analyzed with special test images, as is otherwise an essential part of the workflow of a HIFI.DE TV test, but it was simply about the question: Which image performed best with our experts?
Thanks for the link though, always interesting to read.


JSmith
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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Nicer in a darkened room, in real world bright living quarters, not so much so.
A Neo QLED can take the day. ;)
To be honest: who the hell watches movies in a brightly lit room?
That's no fun at all, no matter the panel, especially when you factor in nasty screen reflections.

It's like saying Focal sounds better than Elac .... when I put them on a construction site. :'D
 

Talisman

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That's no fun at all, no matter the panel, especially when you factor in nasty screen reflections.
I have a huge window right next to the television, no reflections since the window is on the side, but lots of light. I also watch films during the day if it happens, without having to darken everything, if I wanted to stay in the dark every time I have to watch TV I would have chosen a projector
 

napfkuchen

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... went with the OLED because of much better off axis viewing ...
My last tv (Sony 65" with local dimming) was very annoying in this regard, not only when watching from the left/right side but also the difference in black levels / contrast when seated or lying on the couch was immense. Now with OLED the viewing angle is no issue, and brightness (some will criticize this) is also no issue as I only use it in a dark room. Since short throw laser projectors have become popular recently I was also thinking about getting one of those instead but you can't unsee perfect black levels and this has spoiled me. My next tv will definitely be an OLED again, but it doesn't necessarily have to have integrated ambilight again.
 

Tim Link

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I've been looking at OLED with interest ever since it first hit the market. I love the concept, but so far I've been uhappy with what I see, and it mostly comes down to brightness issues, ABL and ASBL. With all the consensus that OLEDs have the best picture, I'm glad to see that this issue is recognized on rtings and other review sites as something that some people find highly bothersome. It's amazing to me that some people are baffled about it, seem to not see it hardly at all, and don't know what some of us are complaining about. I'm just glad there are other options available for those of us who can see that issue clearly. I like to watch in a dim room, but not a dark room. My TV can do a real 650 nits, full screen sustained. That's what real means to me. Having partial screen areas get increasingly brighter as they get smaller is not at all accurate. From what I can see, OLED can do just a bit over 200 nits without getting into dynamic trickery. If I had an OLED, I'd be looking for a way to limit peak brightness at any screen size to 200 nits to prevent the ABL and ASBL from kicking in. I might go a little higher than that. I'd have to experiment to see how much I can tolerate. That would require a very dim viewing environment to achieve a dynamic look. The infinitely deep blacks are next to worthless to my eye. There's really nothing I want to look at that has no illumination at all, or is viewed against a jet black background. What about saturation in darker areas? Well it looks very unnatural to me the way these TVs present it, including my mini LED TV. Saturation should appear lower at lower intensity. That's what I see in the real world. Not sure why I see so much garish color in the shadows on video content. I suspect it is largely the fault of choices made by content creators, but the natural washout from LCD light bleed often helps it look more natural. Better to fade gracefully into a higher noise floor than flail into an infinitely deep abyss. I turned local dimming to low on my TV. Blacks aren't as deep and that's just fine by me. Nothing good to see in those deep blacks. This may have something to do with my vision as well, because I don't have unusually high visual acuity, but the one area I tested very well in when I was applying for the Air Force acadamy was sensing subtle color patterns in low light. The doc. said he'd had very few people recognize all the patterns at the lowest light levels, and I did it very quickly. So, whatever that's worth, maybe I have unusual vision.

Having tested good for low light color pattern perception, I also seem to be highly tolerant of bright light. I generally don't feel the need to wear sunglasses unless I'm forced to look at glaring sunlight reflections off water or vehicles or very bright terrain. Out in the woods on a sunny day I just wear them now to protect my lenses from UV. I call sunglasses gloomers. They can make a sunny day look a little gloomier. Some I got recently claim to have some kind of contrast enhancing effect. It seems to work. They give a sunny day a sort of OLED look. When I take them off eveything looks bright and relatively washed out. Reality! I prefer it. One area OLEDs excel at is recreating the look of LED christmas lighting I see on my night walks. LEDs can look like LEDs! They do a great job of that, and simulating other artificial light sources at night. Natural, diffuse lighting, not so much for me. Some say that TVs are already way brighter than they need to be. I totally disagree. I'd love to have a 10,000 nit capable screen - 100 percent screen area, sustained. For reference, vision damage starts in the range of 250,000 nits. So 10,000 nits would be equivalent to listening to the stereo at a very safe level, but turned up loud enough so you can really hear it at its best. I don't expect to ever have a TV this bright and don't even want one unless some amazing technology comes out to greatly increase the energy efficiency. I don't want to be pulling too many watts out of the wall just to watch TV. What I do think may be available at some point is a display that can do maybe 1500 nits with no more energy requirement than my current TV, and have higher native contrast and some of the other benefits of current OLED technology. I'm hoping direct emmisive tech. continues to improve. There are experimental technologies that have been demonstrated that may in a few years allow us to leave this mini LED and OLED tech. behind us.
For now I'm really happy with my mini LED. Its strengths are quite pleasing and its weaknesses are highly tolerable.
 
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Tim Link

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I stopped by at Video Only today to look at the lastest OLED and Mini LED TVs. They had their TVs in "default" mode, which meant they didn't mess with the settings. However they came in, that's how they played them. I asked the guy if he could put them in filmmaker mode for me. He seemed reluctant but finally did, and then quickly changed them back. I was able to compare the same footage on a Samsung QN90C right next to a Samsung S90C. The S90C in filmmaker mode was the first time I've seen an OLED not look over-the-top with saturation and contrast. So that proves one point to me. OLEDs can meet my approval for looking natural. Very nice! However, it was a lot darker than the QN90C for some reason. When they were in their wacky modes they both looked similarly bright but the S90C was more over the top on both saturation and contrast, I'm guesing because it can. I found another thread where a guy was wonder why, if filmmaker mode is so accurate, you end up with such a darker look on the OLED panels? He was comparing it to a mini LED on his Macbook Pro. https://www.avforums.com/threads/filmmaker-mode-is-so-dark-i-cant-watch-anything.2467767/
Seems the guy's question hasn't been adequately answered yet. I've looked at the new Macbook Pros, and those displays look terrific to me when watching HDR content. There's got to be something wrong with one of the displays. They can't look that different in brightness and both be right. Or perhaps filmmaker mode doesn't specifiy the absolute brightness level, just the relative. My guess is it has to do with the brightness capabillity of the display, so for filmmaker mode they'd need to mimimize the amount of ABL and ABSL that occur, and to do that you turn down the brightness so it doesn't have to. That's what I'd do, and that appears to be what they've done.
On some other content in "wacky" modes, I noticed things I've seen before, like large illumanated areas being darker on the OLED, but they ramp up the saturation, I guess to make it look like "we meant to do that." That's one of the main looks I've noted about OLEDs - large areas that should be bright and glowy are darker and oversaturated.
They had an old 27" CRT in there for comparison. Surprisingly not bad! On lower resolution content it looked a LOT better. The colors were much more realistic than the newer TVs, and the contrast seemed just right. The grass looked grassy instead of flourescent. I'm sure those LCDs and OLEDs were all in their wacky modes, so not a fair fight.
 
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Timcognito

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I stopped by at Video Only today to look at the lastest OLED and Mini LED TVs. They had their TVs in "default" mode, which meant they didn't mess with the settings. However they came in, that's how they played them. I asked the guy if he could put them in filmmaker mode for me. He seemed reluctant but finally did, and then quickly changed them back. I was able to compare the same footage on a Samsung QN90C right next to a Samsung S90C. The S90C in filmmaker mode was the first time I've seen an OLED not look over-the-top with saturation and contrast. So that proves one point to me. OLEDs can meet my approval for looking natural. Very nice! However, it was a lot darker than the QN90C for some reason. When they were in their wacky modes they both looked similarly bright but the S90C was more over the top on both saturation and contrast, I'm guesing because it can. I found another thread where a guy was wonder why, if filmmaker mode is so accurate, you end up with such a darker look on the OLED panels? He was comparing it to a mini LED on his Macbook Pro. https://www.avforums.com/threads/filmmaker-mode-is-so-dark-i-cant-watch-anything.2467767/
Seems the guy's question hasn't been adequately answered yet. I've looked at the new Macbook Pros, and those displays look terrific to me when watching HDR content. There's got to be something wrong with one of the displays. They can't look that different in brightness and both be right. Or perhaps filmmaker mode doesn't specifiy the absolute brightness level, just the relative.
They had an old 27" CRT in there for comparison. Surprisingly not bad! On lower resolution content it looked a LOT better. The colors were much more realistic than the newer TVs, and the contrast seemed just right. The grass looked grassy instead of flourescent. I'm sure those LCDs and OLEDs were all in their wacky modes, so not a fair fight.
My experience is visit VO at 11am or 2pm on week day and those guys will play with all the settings as that's when business is slow. Also write down the best settings from the rtings.com site for your potential sets and plug them in.
 

Sal1950

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My experience is visit VO at 11am or 2pm on week day and those guys will play with all the settings as that's when business is slow. Also write down the best settings from the rtings.com site for your potential sets and plug them in.
Agreed that's the best time, etc. I'd only like to make the comment that trying to pick or compare TVs on the
showroom is difficult if not a complete waste of time.. You'd need to go in with calibrating tools, calibrate all the interesting models, and then compare their performance by eye.
Knowing your budget and then doing your homework on the real con's and plus's of the different tech's, and honestly considering your usage type, should pretty much nail it down.
Oh Yea,,bigger IS always better. ;)
 

DLS79

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Oleds really shine when you want color accuracy and a high contrast ratio. However, you need additional software and a colorimeter to calibrate them.
 
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Bleib

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Sal1950

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"Deep Tech Stuff" ?? LOL
Easy to answer question, If you see any TV on the showroom today that "Looks Terrible", SOMETHINGS WRONG!
All modern TV's can deliver incredible PQ quality with only minor differences between them.
 

Bleib

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"Deep Tech Stuff" ?? LOL
Easy to answer question, If you see any TV on the showroom today that "Looks Terrible", SOMETHINGS WRONG!
All modern TV's can deliver incredible PQ quality with only minor differences between them.
Don't think this is quite right. Some have poor uniformity and BLB. Some VA panels don't look that great from certain angles either.
Most non mini LED aren't great in contrast either, the deepest blacks leave a lot to be desired. But run bright scenes and most of them will look ok, nature stuff that are very common on youtube for instance.
Example
 
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"Deep Tech Stuff" ?? LOL
Easy to answer question, If you see any TV on the showroom today that "Looks Terrible", SOMETHINGS WRONG!
All modern TV's can deliver incredible PQ quality with only minor differences between them.

That's plain wrong. My Samsung has black crush. It's high mid tier level TV from 2021.

The old plasma from 2006 honestly beats it in every regard apart from resolution. And that doesn't even matter much as well as we sit 3 m. from the TV.
 

Sal1950

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Don't think this is quite right. Some have poor uniformity and BLB. Some VA panels don't look that great from certain angles either.
That's plain wrong. My Samsung has black crush. It's high mid tier level TV from 2021. The old plasma from 2006 honestly beats it in every regard apart from resolution. And that doesn't even matter much as well as we sit 3 m. from the TV.
Holdt, If it was that bad then why'd you buy it?
Dang people, I didn't claim there was no difference.
But the differences still are minor unless the display model is badly setup.
The "Looks Terrible" statement is more akin to the audiophile claim of "wife heard the dif from the kitchen while frying eggs.
 
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Holdt, If it was that bad then why'd you buy it?
Dang people, I didn't claim there was no difference.
But the differences still are minor unless the display model is badly setup.
The "Looks Terrible" statement is more akin to the audiophile claim of "wife heard the dif from the kitchen while frying eggs.
I bought it because I thought there were np bad TVs today and the reviews for it were great.

I guess the standard has been lowered.
 
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