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The Bach thread

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Keith_W

Keith_W

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What is your favorite version of this piece?
Among many, I like this one:

I will start by saying that different people hear different things in Bach, and also in Bach recordings. Even for myself, if I am in a different mood when I listen to Bach, I might hear something different. This is why I have more than 10 complete recordings in my collection. Since you asked me what my favourite recording is, here are a few of mine and what I think about them:

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I consider Sviatoslav Richter to be the greatest pianist of the 20th century. Why? Because he was so versatile. You will find that most pianists specialize in certain composers or music types, e.g. Brendel and Uchida are Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert specialists, Horowitz for Chopin and Scarlatti, and then you have the ultra specialists who are best known for one composer only, and there are quite a few Bach specialists: Hewitt, Gould, Tureck, Landowska, and so on. Richter was one of very few who could play almost any composer and produce one of the best, if not the best version of the work.

Having said that, I find this recording to have a few Richter eccentricities, for example the C Minor Fugue from book 1 (BWV 847) is played way too fast and aggressive and it almost sounds like percussion. I also think he smooths over the counterpoint for some of the other fugues - if he is trying to make a point, I don't know what it is. You still get the signature hypnotic playing style of Richter which really works with some pieces.

In the clip above, Richter makes the piece sound so bright and full of wonderment, as if you are waking up in the morning and making a start to your day. And yes it is a wonderful way to start everything that Richter is going to serve you next.

Overall I think it is an inconsistent collection with some amazing pieces and some horrifyingly bad pieces with the rest in between. I recommend it for the beginner because it was cheap (when it was on CD), and in fact I have bought countless copies as gifts for friends. But it is not the best version.

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Someone will always ask about Glenn Gould, especially Canadians who seem to love Glenn Gould. I have a somewhat controversial view of Gould in that I do not like him. As in, I find his playing to be unlistenable. You probably already know his signature style - metronome-like precision, no piano or forte, no change in dynamics, a dry percussive sound almost as if he is playing every note staccato, and that humming in the background. He treats the piano as a giant harpsichord. Someone said that they hear Gould and not Bach. I agree. I have certainly tried to understand why so many people love him, Gould is the only pianist whom I have collected a sizeable number of recordings even though I do not like his music and barely listen to his recordings - all so that I could try to understand. I still don't understand. So for me, I am not going to recommend him.

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Wanda Landowska once said to another pianist, "You play Bach your way, and i'll play him his way". She wrote a little treatise on the subject of interpreting Bach, where she derides fashion, non-traditional interpretations, and modern instruments: "These fugues, according to Mr. Schweitzer, played on the organ of today, become as heavy and massive as engravings reproduced in crayon. As for our concert-grand, that machine goes to deafen an entire audience. Compare its massive legs with the fine and fragile lines of those of the harpsichord and you will find the difference in taste between the two epochs summed up."

So you would think that she should be the most authentic Bach player? To start with, she uses a harpsichord - but not the same type of delicate harpsichord used by Bach. She used commissioned Pleyel to make her a harpsichord, which had a heavy iron frame similar to concert grands. It produces a massive sound - which to be honest is a matter of taste. I don't like it. Her playing itself has some really unique insights - she is one of those Bach players who will really show you something you have never heard before.

So: the poor sound quality (mostly recorded in the 30's - 40's), the awful Pleyel harpsichord would normally put her on my not recommended list. However, her playing is unique and authentic (albeit early 20th century scholarship and definitely not modern thinking) - so I would recommend her for Bach enthusiasts only. The general public would probably hate it.

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I consider Gustav Leonhardt to be "the grandfather of Bach". He also uses a harpsichord, albeit the more typical delicate version and not Landowska's monstrosity. Leonhardt has a precise, patient, and wise playing style which is really relaxing. He was extremely pious and that comes through in his playing - in fact that is a perfect description of this recording - its sheer piety. Leonhardt was also a Bach scholar, and his collaboration with Niklaus Harnoncourt to produce the complete recording of Bach's cantatas is epic and really worth listening to. Although it is an older recording, EMI did a great job and this recording is really clear and is a good test for sibilance in your system. You should hear none! Definitely recommended.

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Angela Hewitt made two complete recordings of the WTK, and I will recommend the 2008 one. I have also heard her play live on a number of occasions and I can tell you that she plays differently when she records. She said in an interview that for recordings she wants to play precisely and beautifully, but for live performances she wants excitement. This is a real pity because she can certainly sound quite exciting but there is none of that here. Instead, what you get is the latest Bach scholarship, pieces that are meant to be dance-like actually sound like dances, there are no eccentricities, nothing to annoy you, and you get the most pure Bach experience imaginable. Unlike other pianists who use a Steinway, Hewitt uses a Fazioli. Steinways produce a huge, sonorous sound - the typical concert grand derided by Landowska as "deafening the audience". The Fazioli piano has a delicate pearlescent tone which is really beautiful. It never gets as loud as a Steinway (for typical Steinway sound, listen to the Richter, or listen to Hewitt in a live recording). Hewitt is by far my favourite Bach pianist. Definitely recommended.

On a side note, did you know that the first four notes of the subject from the C Major Fugue, combined with the first four notes of the reply ... combine to form a perfect C Major scale? Take a look:

1670294402015.png


(EDIT) inserted youtube clips of all the above pianists playing the same C Major Prelude and Fugue BWV 846.
 
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Keith_W

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Any recommendations for versions of the Concerto No. 1 in D Minor (BWV1052)?

This one, and specifically this one:


Leonhardt made other recordings of the BWV 1052 with Telefunken, Sony, and Pro Arte, but this particular one on SEON is the best version. Listen to the Youtube clip, it is perfectly paced with top to bottom clarity. As I have said elsewhere, clarity is not only a function of the quality of the recording, or the recording engineer, your speaker system, etc. The conductor is by far the most important - selecting a pace which is slow enough for all the musicians to be heard, yet fast enough not to sound ploddy and to give you that period sound. He has to make sure the players play at the correct volume and time, and the different timbres of the instruments are easily heard. This is as close to the perfect BWV 1052 you will ever hear.
 

Rednaxela

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I grew up with Glenn Gould.

Only recently I found out that some movements are played more beautifully by others than him. For instance French Suite No. 4 - Allemande. After hearing Yuan Sheng play it I could not believe that I had no recollection whatsoever of Gould's rendition, which I must have heard 200 times before. The definition of forgettable playing.

That said there are also many pieces for which, to me, this is not the case. For instance I know no interpretation of Italian Concerto - Andante that moves me more than Gould's.

FWIW and YMMV!
 

AudioJester

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@Keith_W - do speakers matter to you when listening to Bach? Curious what you listen with and what type of speaker (if there is such a thing) works for this genre.
Another Angela Hewitt fan here.
 
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Keith_W

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@Keith_W - do speakers matter to you when listening to Bach? Curious what you listen with and what type of speaker (if there is such a thing) works for this genre.
Another Angela Hewitt fan here.

It depends on what you are listening for. I enjoy Bach on any instrument, and I can tolerate recordings made in the 1920's and 30's which are mono, scratchy, and decidedly low-res. For those recordings, speakers don't matter. In fact for a lot of Bach, you do not need a spanking sound system to enjoy it. The only exception is if you want to listen through complex orchestral pieces (and as I said before, the conductor matters more than your sound system), or if you want to hear instrumental timbres, or appreciate the size of a pipe organ. I listen to Bach on all my audio devices, which includes my home system, my car, wireless earbuds (when flying), bone conduction headphones (while swimming), or headphones/IEM (when I am away from home). Right now i'm listening on my laptop because I don't feel like cracking out my DAP/IEM's.
 

hex168

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This one, and specifically this one:


Leonhardt made other recordings of the BWV 1052 with Telefunken, Sony, and Pro Arte, but this particular one on SEON is the best version. Listen to the Youtube clip, it is perfectly paced with top to bottom clarity. As I have said elsewhere, clarity is not only a function of the quality of the recording, or the recording engineer, your speaker system, etc. The conductor is by far the most important - selecting a pace which is slow enough for all the musicians to be heard, yet fast enough not to sound ploddy and to give you that period sound. He has to make sure the players play at the correct volume and time, and the different timbres of the instruments are easily heard. This is as close to the perfect BWV 1052 you will ever hear.
Thank you. I'll have to listen several times, of course, but my immediate reaction is: I like it.

I used to have, and love, a version done by St. Martin-in-the-Fields in the 60's or early 70's. I cannot recall the harpsichordist. A friend liked it so much I had to give it away and I never found a replacement. Never found another harpsichord version I liked (I do like the piano version by Murray Pirahia).

Update: This may be perfect.
 
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Keith_W

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Rosalyn Tureck analyses a Bach fugue. There are only three motifs in the whole fugue - "there is no elaboration, no free counterpoint, no entire notes of any kind in the entire fugue. What makes this a musical composition instead of a repetitious continuation of copies or clones of its three motifs?"

BTW, I created this thread to deepen our understanding of Bach and to discuss what makes a particular performance great or interesting from your point of view. I find that "classical music" thread to be quite pointless, people are only posting pictures of what they are listening to without any discussion.
 

Tremolo

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On a side note, did you know that the first four notes of the subject from the C Major Fugue, combined with the first four notes of the reply ... combine to form a perfect C Major scale? Take a look:
It is kind of unavoidable. If the theme start with an ascending major scale on the dominant, the reply must be the same scale on the tonic (fifth degree). So if you pick the first four notes of each scale that's what you get. The wonder for me is what degree of beauty Bach can reach from such simple themes, like in the Art of The Fugue
 
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I heard Benjamin Alard play the wtc on the harpsicord this weekend and really enjoyed it. Haven't gotten a chance to listen to his recording yet.

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kschmit2

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Johann Sebastian Bach-Fantasia and Fugue in G minor BWV 542 performed by Ukrainian bayanist Alexandr Hrustevich:​


And also a 2010 recording by Alexandr Hrustevic of The Well Tempered Clavier: Book I: Prelude and Fugue No.7 in E flat Major:​


And one from 14 years ago - Johann Sebastian Bach's Passacaglia C Minor BWV 582​


Another recording I love is that of the Goldberg variations by Steffan Hussong:​

View attachment 248340

Click on "Watch on Youtube to get to the playlist:
 

Elkerton

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What is your favorite version of this piece?
Among many, I like this one:View attachment 248004
One of my all time favourite interpretations is the Prelude of the the Bm from Book 1. The walking bass and tempo Richter creates are sublime. I have both the Angel/Melodya LPs and the RCA CD reissue. I once compared the 2 with my concert-pianist, next-door neighbour. We both preferred the LP, despite its having surface noise, because the CD seemed to have lost all of the reverberation of the concert hall.
 

Elkerton

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I will have to have a listen to the Hewitt.

Thanks, Keith, for the comparisons. I too have posted some on another website, Canuck Audio, their being the only ones. I was hoping others would take the hint. Comparisons are so useful.
 

Matias

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Someone will always ask about Glenn Gould, especially Canadians who seem to love Glenn Gould. I have a somewhat controversial view of Gould in that I do not like him. As in, I find his playing to be unlistenable. You probably already know his signature style - metronome-like precision, no piano or forte, no change in dynamics, a dry percussive sound almost as if he is playing every note staccato, and that humming in the background. He treats the piano as a giant harpsichord. Someone said that they hear Gould and not Bach. I agree. I have certainly tried to understand why so many people love him, Gould is the only pianist whom I have collected a sizeable number of recordings even though I do not like his music and barely listen to his recordings - all so that I could try to understand. I still don't understand. So for me, I am not going to recommend him.
I am far from a Bach specialist, or even piano/harpsichord master, so take this with several grains of salt. But I think Glen Gould became famous in 1955 for his relatively young age (22 years old) recording of the Goldberg Variations in a ridiculously fast tempo, which tends to impress people and get headlines for its virtuosity, even if it subtracts the enjoyment and beauty that some songs require.

He also agreed to that in his older age, which led to the re-recording in 1981 with slower songs when needed (Aria) and still keeping fast tempos when appropriate (Variation 5 for example).

Below is a great article describing both versions.
Gould grew to feel that his 1955 “Goldberg” recording was, he said in an interview near the end of his life, “just too fast for comfort.”

Video below shows the 1981 version of Variation 5 still fast at 7:19:

While the initial Aria in a much better slow and melodic tempo.
 
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Matias

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PS: hearing all different recordings of the same piece on your favorite streaming service is a hobby by itself. :D


bach.jpg
 
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Keith_W

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I haven't done a deep dive into the BWV 248 as I have with some of Bach's other pieces in that I "only" have four in my collection on CD and the Rilling on vinyl. Here are some which I own, and which I have discovered by reputation.


Karl Richter would be my go-to if you prefer a more old fashioned performance. Richter was famously opposed to the trend towards original instruments and faster tempi, instead favouring large orchestras, large choirs, slower tempi, and more grandeur. His critics said that Richter wanted to make Germans feel good about themselves after the war, and you can certainly see why they say that. There were other proponents of "modern" instruments, most notably Otto Klemperer, but Richter to me felt more full of life and vigour than many other interpreters. Note the methodical, precise conducting with no extra frills and you will think he is the most German of them all.


Niklaus Harnoncourt has a special place with most Bach enthusiasts for his historically informed and well researched performances with period instruments. Although he prefers period instruments, he uses "modern" tempi, i.e. slower and more deliberate. His recordings are noted for instrumental timbre which makes them a pleasure to listen to on any sufficiently resolving sound system. And as you can hear from the clip, there is no shortage of joy or emotion. The downside is that there are sometimes eccentricities and bizarre choices. I am sure he has his reasons but he does do things that no other conductor would - like the blaring of a hunter's horn which is too loud and so on.


John Eliot Gardiner is another favourite when it comes to interpreting Bach choral music. Period instruments, eloquent expression, historically informed. When he was a child, his parents were given a famous original portrait of Bach for safekeeping during the war, so he has always been around Bach. Unfortunately I find his performances too fast. Where Richter might tackle the same passage with more gravitas, Gardiner will make it sound like a dance. In that way, Richter and Gardiner, although on opposite ends of the spectrum, are similar - if emotional range is a spectrum, Richter tends towards slower and more serious performances with his joyful moments less expressive, while Gardiner is the opposite with his darker emotional moments less serious. Still, a lot of people love him so I am obliged to put him on the list.


Helmuth Rilling has a more dense and lush sound with slower tempi than Gardiner. His recordings with Teldec and Hanssler are outstanding (remember, Teldec marketed themselves as a mainstream audiophile label), however many recordings are hard panned like many early stereo recordings were.


Phillippe Herreweghe is always mentioned when it comes to any Bach chorale work and for good reason - he is one of the best. In fact I would go so far as to call this the definitive recording of the BWV 248. Light, fleet, period instruments, and superb musicianship. He has the depth of Richter, the joy of Gardiner, and the scholarship of Harnoncourt. Most of the time, the recording engineers who work with him are top notch as well, resulting in extraordinary clarity of recording and performance. If you get only one, this should be the one.


Jordi Savall is the newest recording on this list. I associate his other performances with serious, historically informed, superbly researched, incredibly well recorded - but joyless music making. I have no idea how he procures his instruments but most of the time they are antiques (and with some of his other recordings, he actually needs to find people who know how to play really ancient instruments from other cultures). Still, the sound quality is impressive and without equal. If you want a recording to test your system's ability to recreate atmosphere, correct instrumental texture, and soundstage, Savall never disappoints. But I can not place him among the greats when it comes to Bach.
 

Matias

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Jordi Savall is an expert in ancient instruments.
 

Robin L

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Jordi Savall is an expert in ancient instruments.
Savall's Bach tends to go slow and dark---his instrumentation for the Art of Fugue leans to the funereal. His Brandenburgs are lovely, but slower than most other HIPP performances. Savall's real area of specialty is Spanish/Castalian pre-Bach choral and solo vocal music.

Edit---oops, almost forgot. He's the world's greatest viol de gamba soloist:

 
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Chazz6

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Any recommendations for versions of the Concerto No. 1 in D Minor (BWV1052)?
Normally I find Russian playing melodramatic, but when I heard Polina Osetsinskaya's recording of BWV 1052, it was magnificent.
 

Matias

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Here is Lang Lang playing the Aria from Goldberg Variations. He recently released an album in 24/96 with both studio version and live playing in Thomaskirche where Bach is buried.

More info here


IMG_5659.jpeg


Edit: and his interview and playing here too.

 
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