The 'Audiophool' and Streaming

[r042wal]

A general observation I have made about audio forums, and let me clarify, not ASR, there are frequent or top posters that make it such a point to bring about the errors of others and to correct them, it makes me wonder when they actually have time to sit down and reap the rewards of their hobby. It would appear their mandate is to clearly dictate how knowledgeable they are over everyone else. In my opinion, it would discourage new posters with a keen idea of participating in the community.

I like to spend my time lurking here because I feel more aligned with the group. However, when I have a contribution I would like to make, I have a defeatist attitude before I even start.

Today I finally finished my 12 ga. 16mm rubber surrounded speakers cables. It is 16mm 12/3 with the 3rd wire snipped. I had been waiting on the Nakamichi banana plugs and speaker cable pants. I got everything finished today, one 6' cable and one 12' cable.

My original plan was to inject a 1 kHz signal down one end, monitor it on my oscilloscope on the other end, then take my portable spectrum analyzer with Comm Power PS-400 near field probes connected to my SA to see if I could detect any spurious EMF or harmonics off the input signal in a detectable hearing range. I am not sure how scientific this is in the audio realm since this is not my field of expertise, but as I was showing off my cables to my wife this afternoon, I said there are people out there that would pay thousand for what I just made.

 

[Galliardist]

A general observation I have made about audio forums, and let me clarify, not ASR, there are frequent or top posters that make it such a point to bring about the errors of others and to correct them, it makes me wonder when they actually have time to sit down and reap the rewards of their hobby.

Oh, but here at ASR we post about the errors of others and to correct them, WHILE we look at graphs and listen to measurements!

What rewards of the hobby do you mean - listening to music? I tried that once, horrible noisy stuff.

 

[antcollinet]

No, the discussion was different streamers feeding the DAC.

I'd followed the thread back as far as this post - which wasn't

The 'Audiophool' and Streaming

I only know that the vast majority of my CDs sound 1. different and 2. more to my like than same music streamed via Tidal CD quality. In an increasing number of cases, you may be listening to un-decoded MQA at the Tidal HiFi (CD) level.

audiosciencereview.com

See - we can all have a different perspective here.


But even if we are only talking about different streamers, then as I suggested different streamers can perform different DSP. Even if they don't, then points 1 and 3 still apply.

 

[NiagaraPete]

A general observation I have made about audio forums, and let me clarify, not ASR, there are frequent or top posters that make it such a point to bring about the errors of others and to correct them, it makes me wonder when they actually have time to sit down and reap the rewards of their hobby. It would appear their mandate is to clearly dictate how knowledgeable they are over everyone else. In my opinion, it would discourage new posters with a keen idea of participating in the community.

I like to spend my time lurking here because I feel more aligned with the group. However, when I have a contribution I would like to make, I have a defeatist attitude before I even start.

Today I finally finished my 12 ga. 16mm rubber surrounded speakers cables. It is 16mm 12/3 with the 3rd wire snipped. I had been waiting on the Nakamichi banana plugs and speaker cable pants. I got everything finished today, one 6' cable and one 12' cable.

My original plan was to inject a 1 kHz signal down one end, monitor it on my oscilloscope on the other end, then take my portable spectrum analyzer with Comm Power PS-400 near field probes connected to my SA to see if I could detect any spurious EMF or harmonics off the input signal in a detectable hearing range. I am not sure how scientific this is in the audio realm since this is not my field of expertise, but as I was showing off my cables to my wife this afternoon, I said there are people out there that would pay thousand for what I just made.

I like you post and comments, but. It has nothing to do with the original post. On forums threads be kind and stat on topic or start a new threads.

 

[HairyEars]

I'd followed the thread back as far as this post - which wasn't

The 'Audiophool' and Streaming

I only know that the vast majority of my CDs sound 1. different and 2. more to my like than same music streamed via Tidal CD quality. In an increasing number of cases, you may be listening to un-decoded MQA at the Tidal HiFi (CD) level.

audiosciencereview.com

See - we can all have a different perspective here.


But even if we are only talking about different streamers, then as I suggested different streamers can perform different DSP. Even if they don't, then points 1 and 3 still apply.

Ok, Tony...I'll address your point 1& 3 in a lump sum.

In principle, you can dismiss anyone's experience, as the testing method hasn't been sanctioned by your presence--and it's your prerogative. I merely shared my findings so others can be intrigued enough to test it. If you'd rather stick to your preconceived notion about DACs eliminating any noise/jitter from upstream--go for it. For me, that attitude verges on religious zeal.

My system is highly resolving, my room is treated to the hilt, and my chain is just a streamer. These make it easy for most listeners to pick up on every detail. I know from a handful of controlled experiments that jitter and noise level would affect the output. It glares in my face, so obvious.

I'll leave it at that and go and enjoy some music.

 

[ahofer]

My system is highly resolving, my room is treated to the hilt, and my chain is just a streamer. These make it easy for most listeners to pick up on every detail. I know from a handful of controlled experiments that jitter and noise level would affect the output. It glares in my face, so obvious.

Tell us about these controlled experiments. We always find that more interesting than bragging about how "resolving" (whatever that means) one's system is. It seems like you got a highly improbable result.

 

[HairyEars]

Tell us about these controlled experiments. We always find that more interesting than bragging about how "resolving" (whatever that means) one's system is. It seems like you got a highly improbable result.

I’ll relate my method and next share tmy latest experiment, which I believe you’ll find interesting.

Method:
I listen to the first 30 to 90 seconds of one selected track (I change tracks between experiments, to keep it fresh). The number of seconds depends on the frequency range I’m presented with. I alternate sources several times and look for audible differences. Usually, I spot a difference in the low and low-upper end. But sibilance can rear its head too. If I can’t tell a difference, I don’t proceed, as I don’t have a clue to go on.

I leave the room and my spouse sets the cables to one source. Both sources are veiled in drapes. She marks a scoring card with her selection. After she departs the room without crossing ways with me, I enter the media room and press play on my iPod (SoundCloud). I mark my scoring card.

We do that 6 times. Sometimes she keeps the same source to confuse me. Finally, we compare cards. Admittedly, sometimesI fail, that is, anything less than 5/6.

I know, I should buy a passive switch…

Now to my latest, which was easy to pass with flying colors. I keep reading here that audiophile switches don’t make a difference, My experience tells me otherwise. A friend brought over a couple of EtherRegen and a fancy Mutec clock. I have to say it was extremely easy to point out the ER. The sound was terrible. Sibilant edge that was occasionally harsh, and extreme separation, for lack of better words, that destroyed any cohesiveness in the music. That was one hell of “in-your-face.”

Going by ASR conventional wisdom, I had expected to detect no difference, not to encounter degradation in sound. Go figure.

 

[Galliardist]

I’ll relate my method and next share tmy latest experiment, which I believe you’ll find interesting.

Method:
I listen to the first 30 to 90 seconds of one selected track (I change tracks between experiments, to keep it fresh). The number of seconds depends on the frequency range I’m presented with. I alternate sources several times and look for audible differences. Usually, I spot a difference in the low and low-upper end. But sibilance can rear its head too. If I can’t tell a difference, I don’t proceed, as I don’t have a clue to go on.

I leave the room and my spouse sets the cables to one source. Both sources are veiled in drapes. She marks a scoring card with her selection. After she departs the room without crossing ways with me, I enter the media room and press play on my iPod (SoundCloud). I mark my scoring card.

We do that 6 times. Sometimes she keeps the same source to confuse me. Finally, we compare cards. Admittedly, sometimesI fail, that is, anything less than 5/6.

I know, I should buy a passive switch…

Now to my latest, which was easy to pass with flying colors. I keep reading here that audiophile switches don’t make a difference, My experience tells me otherwise. A friend brought over a couple of EtherRegen and a fancy Mutec clock. I have to say it was extremely easy to point out the ER. The sound was terrible. Sibilant edge that was occasionally harsh, and extreme separation, for lack of better words, that destroyed any cohesiveness in the music. That was one hell of “in-your-face.”

Going by ASR conventional wisdom, I had expected to detect no difference, not to encounter degradation in sound. Go figure.

1) I’d prefer more samples in your tests. 10/10 is more convincing than 5/6.

2) There are problems with the “someone else changes cables” method with time between entering and exiting the room, and movement of the setup, that can be a giveaway. I know of a non audio double blind test which had to be repeated at considerable cost due to the chance of such a fault. It will get brought up so has to be addressed.

3) With the EtherRegen test you describe, I’ve heard something like this, briefly, from a cheap switch where the power supply went bad. What I heard also had a loud background broadband hiss. So I at least won’t count tbst result as impossible but would suspect the EtherRegen PSU may have been faulty. Though in my case the power supply died within a minute of the noise happening, and I can’t be 100% sure that the noise and PSU. failure are connected (it could have been a mains power issue causing the noise and PSU failure separately).

A final point is that your method may show a difference but it doesn’t indicate the root cause cause. The actual system in use has to be examined to determine that, as well as the test procedure.

Even if you deliberately introduce jitter and hear a difference, you need to be sure of your test procedure to know that the jitter, and not some other change, is causing the problem. An uncertain rest procedure is one thing, when someone puts forward a cause without direct evidence, that’s where the real problems start.

Of course if you’ve measured high jitter where you are blaming it, that’s a whole other matter!

 

[ahofer]

I’ll relate my method and next share tmy latest experiment, which I believe you’ll find interesting.

Method:
I listen to the first 30 to 90 seconds of one selected track (I change tracks between experiments, to keep it fresh). The number of seconds depends on the frequency range I’m presented with. I alternate sources several times and look for audible differences. Usually, I spot a difference in the low and low-upper end. But sibilance can rear its head too. If I can’t tell a difference, I don’t proceed, as I don’t have a clue to go on.

I leave the room and my spouse sets the cables to one source. Both sources are veiled in drapes. She marks a scoring card with her selection. After she departs the room without crossing ways with me, I enter the media room and press play on my iPod (SoundCloud). I mark my scoring card.

We do that 6 times. Sometimes she keeps the same source to confuse me. Finally, we compare cards. Admittedly, sometimesI fail, that is, anything less than 5/6.

I know, I should buy a passive switch…

Now to my latest, which was easy to pass with flying colors. I keep reading here that audiophile switches don’t make a difference, My experience tells me otherwise. A friend brought over a couple of EtherRegen and a fancy Mutec clock. I have to say it was extremely easy to point out the ER. The sound was terrible. Sibilant edge that was occasionally harsh, and extreme separation, for lack of better words, that destroyed any cohesiveness in the music. That was one hell of “in-your-face.”

Going by ASR conventional wisdom, I had expected to detect no difference, not to encounter degradation in sound. Go figure.

I think it's great that you went to that effort.

I have previously offered prizes for achieving this kind of result in a properly-controlled and refereed setting. I wonder if we could set that up for switches and offer the same. They would have to be verified as functioning properly prior to the test, and we would need to agree on referees. Would you be interested in reproducing this feat in such a setting?

[UPDATE June 13 14 15 16 - no response as yet...]

 

[krabapple]

I am puzzled by the ‘audiophool’ and streaming. Don’t get me wrong, I think streaming can very convenient and is a great way to hear music that you don’t have in your collection. As a matter of fact, I have a Tidal account although I don’t use it much.

However, no matter how good your Internet connection is, there is not the same bandwidth for hi-res music as there is on a local system hardwired with interconnects to coax or i2s. Also, factor in sources like Qobuz, Tital and the like, they are heard to have stripped down copies to conserve bandwidth (compressed) and facilitate more efficient streaming - this being the reason why the same Redbook in your CD collection sounds better than the Redbook CD from a streaming service.

is it?
For one thing , the data compression has to be pretty large to be routinely audible.

For another, the mastering they use may be different from what you own.

For another, you don't know what other processing -- anything from simply volume normalization, to actual dynamic range compression, to EQ-- has been done to a stream, or by your local player.

And finally, some services offer lossless streams.

 

[kemmler3D]

top posters that make it such a point to bring about the errors of others and to correct them, it makes me wonder when they actually have time to sit down and reap the rewards of their hobby

The thing is, that IS their hobby. Not doing the thing, but critically discussing the thing and deriving a sense of superiority about it. It's a dangerous drug we serve ourselves when we start commenting online!

I had expected to detect no difference, not to encounter degradation in sound. Go figure.

Indeed, the way ethernet switches interact with the sound (they don't, in theory) should preclude any effect on the sound, since there isn't supposed to be any change in the content of packets nor the timing of samples at the DAC. If you really did hear something, things have gone terribly wrong. Worth investigating further.

 

[HairyEars]

1) I’d prefer more samples in your tests. 10/10 is more convincing than 5/6.

2) There are problems with the “someone else changes cables” method with time between entering and exiting the room, and movement of the setup, that can be a giveaway. I know of a non audio double blind test which had to be repeated at considerable cost due to the chance of such a fault. It will get brought up so has to be addressed.

3) With the EtherRegen test you describe, I’ve heard something like this, briefly, from a cheap switch where the power supply went bad. What I heard also had a loud background broadband hiss. So I at least won’t count tbst result as impossible but would suspect the EtherRegen PSU may have been faulty. Though in my case the power supply died within a minute of the noise happening, and I can’t be 100% sure that the noise and PSU. failure are connected (it could have been a mains power issue causing the noise and PSU failure separately).

A final point is that your method may show a difference but it doesn’t indicate the root cause cause. The actual system in use has to be examined to determine that, as well as the test procedure.

Even if you deliberately introduce jitter and hear a difference, you need to be sure of your test procedure to know that the jitter, and not some other change, is causing the problem. An uncertain rest procedure is one thing, when someone puts forward a cause without direct evidence, that’s where the real problems start.

Of course if you’ve measured high jitter where you are blaming it, that’s a whole other matter!

The pair of ERs were in a perfect condition. Nothing to do with their power supply either, as they were fed by an LPS (Keces P3. My friend’s been using them in his chain without an issue for a long while.

When we disconnected the clock, the “distortion” was ameliorated. When we had only one ER in the chain, the harshness was further removed. I have little doubt the device does something downstream.

As for the cause, I don’t even try to hypothesis. Missing a solid background in electric engineering, it’s above my paygrade. I do these sorts of experiments to gain observational wisdom, that’s all.

So far, some hypotheses presented on this website are conflicting and more than one are refuted when put to the test. Some people are very dogmatic here, but it seems that matters aren’t truly cut and dry.

 

[Galliardist]

The pair of ERs were in a perfect condition. Nothing to do with their power supply either, as they were fed by an LPS (Keces P3. My friend’s been using them in his chain without an issue for a long while.

When we disconnected the clock, the “distortion” was ameliorated. When we had only one ER in the chain, the harshness was further removed. I have little doubt the device does something downstream.

As for the cause, I don’t even try to hypothesis. Missing a solid background in electric engineering, it’s above my paygrade. I do these sorts of experiments to gain observational wisdom, that’s all.

So far, some hypotheses presented on this website are conflicting and more than one are refuted when put to the test. Some people are very dogmatic here, but it seems that matters aren’t truly cut and dry.

Thanks for this response.

I'll remain convinced that a fancy product will not improve on a correctly working, normal Ethernet chain, for now. Bad distortion from a product doesn't counter that assertion.

Why you got distortion can't be told without a proper examination of the system to find the cause, I do note that the makers of EtherRegen recommend using the PSU supplied with the product, but that's not really here or there unless the LPS concerned was truly incompatible and that seems unlikely if the setup is used with no issue elsewhere.

Have you by any chance blind tested the EtherRegens in your friend's system and demonstrated a clear improvement there?

 

[Bergante]

Indeed, the way ethernet switches interact with the sound (they don't, in theory) should preclude any effect on the sound, since there isn't supposed to be any change in the content of packets nor the timing of samples at the DAC. If you really did hear something, things have gone terribly wrong. Worth investigating further.

Something audiophools miss when talking about paranormal influence of the network gear in streaming audio es encryption.

If you are streaming from Spotify, Tidal, Apple Music, etc, data is encrypted.

That encryption is not a silly Cæsar's Cypher replacing each byte with something else. It satisfies two properties: confusion and difussion. The interesting one being the latter. If you change a single bit in a single sample all of the data packet (which contains lots of samples!) will change. Each sample will be somewhat "dilluted" in time. So tell me about jitter! Of course it's reversible. But I dare someone explain how some supposed physical phemomenon can cause an effect on an encrypted audio stream like this.

Change a single bit in the encrypted packet and, once decrypted, the whole packet payload, all of the samples, will be shit.

Jitter is significant when there is a discrepancy between the clock used to sample audio (ie, the AD converter) and the clock used for the DA converter. Anything in the middle (unless there is some explicit clock synchronisation mechanism between AD and DA which is not the case) is absolutely irrelevant. You can print out the audio data dump, send the printed copy using messenger pigeons, scan and OCR it back and, unless there are OCR errors, audio will be the same.

The only reason I can imagine an Ethernet switch causing problems is interference. Even though twisted pair Ethernet is balanced maybe very poorly designed equipment can accept interference. I remember a case I witnessed (not audio related) in which a small router had problems with a twisted pair transceiver when the wireless interface was enabled but unconfigured and without an antenna. It was sending beacon packets at 30 dBm to an empty connector (which is a huge impedance mismatch) and for reasons I didn't have tie to diagnose properly, it was likely affecting the internal power rails. Shutting it down or configuring it properly for a lower output power solved the problem.

Other than that, I work for an ISP. Does anyone think we have "audiophile" routers using insanely priced patch cables or fibers?

 

[buz]

Looking at the price of some network gear, it might well come from audiophool companies *cough* cisco *cough*

 

[Bergante]

Looking at the price of some network gear, it might well come from audiophool companies *cough* cisco *cough*

Well, software development is hard when you have to move traffic at 100 Gbps volumes and you offer lots of configuration options!

 

[Talisman]

A general observation I have made about audio forums, and let me clarify, not ASR, there are frequent or top posters that make it such a point to bring about the errors of others and to correct them, it makes me wonder when they actually have time to sit down and reap the rewards of their hobby. It would appear their mandate is to clearly dictate how knowledgeable they are over everyone else. In my opinion, it would discourage new posters with a keen idea of participating in the community.

As a general statement I agree with you.
However ASR is in a very unique position within the audio community, preaching and spreading a radically opposite culture to the one that has been perpetrated and carried on for years and years on audio forums and magazines.
Over time, this has produced several raids by audiophiles scandalized at the idea that a 100 euro dac can sound identical to a 10,000 euro one or that their precious audiophile cable, which uses unicorn hair strands twisted the full moon from young virgins, has exactly the same performance as the 10 euro Amazon basic cable.
This inevitably affects the result you saw.
When a user, even in good faith, proposes old audiophile workhorses, already denied and ultra-disproved and seasoned them with phrases such as "it is known" or "as we know"
the community's reaction is often very aggressive. But please, don't blame the site or the users, try to put yourself in our shoes, we are the outcasts of the audio world, the blaphemers, we always need to defend ourselves from any kind of absurd statement (see the latest videos on the cables with gd research).
So please continue to ask your questions if genuine and start discussions.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

You can print out the audio data dump, send the printed copy using messenger pigeons, scan and OCR it back and, unless there are OCR errors, audio will be the same.

Excellent explanation

 

[MaxwellsEq]

If you are streaming from Spotify, Tidal, Apple Music, etc, data is encrypted

This is an important point. Most encryption algorithms are designed to hide any repeated pattern (such as headers) effectively making them appear as noise. So an encrypted bitstream looks random and there are no "clocks" discoverable without knowing the end-to-end session key.

 

[Bergante]

Over time, this has produced several raids by audiophiles scandalized at the idea that a 100 euro dac can sound identical to a 10,000 euro one or that their precious audiophile cable, which uses unicorn hair strands twisted the full moon from young virgins, has exactly the same performance as the 10 euro Amazon basic cable.

Careful what you say! There are good, bad and awful connectors. I remember cheap microphone cables with apalling XLR connectors, poorly soldered, which picked up all sorts of interference on stage. Of course it was a corner case! And some poor quality XLR connectors are outright dangerous, they can get stuck to expensive pro audio equipment causing damage when struggling to pull them out.

And, for some fun. I have seen a "gold plated" Monster Cable (yeah, for real!) RCA interconnect that was stored at a damp place with green oxyde "growing" on the supposedly gold plated connector. Maybe it was ecological/organic gold, hence the green