Tape: Sonic Gold, or Something Worse Than Vinyl to Obsess Over?

[audio2design]

Nowadays just use online storage. I use two systems for redundancy. Not worried.

 

[audio2design]

I don't think we are dissing tape just aware of it's imperfections.

 

[Robin L]

Sure. But in the classical music industry analog tape was effectively abandoned already in the beginning of the 1980s.

Pretty much. A recording engineer [or an amateur recordist] could get a digital recorder in the 1980s, Like the Sony 501 that I used with a Betamax recorder. The advantages for recording classical music would still be there for people bouncing to analog tape: lower tape costs, lighter, more portable recording gear, greater dynamic range, better noise floor. A few things were bounced to analog for editing. I think Jack Vad had the first CD issued that was edited in the digital domain, mid-1980s [Ensemble Alcatraz, Visions and Miracles]. Early 1990's DAT recorders were everywhere, really great for recording classical music [usually from a microphone mix into two channels], not so good for rock/pop. So more classical recordings were issued from digital masters than pop/rock in the 1980's/ early 1990's.

 

[H-713]

Nowadays just use online storage. I use two systems for redundancy. Not worried.

That doesn't do anything about formats that have been lost to history. I'm not going to say that I like Steve Albini or agree with all of his opinions (though I have respect for him), he brings up a problem that nobody wants to talk about. Due to the rapid progress in the computer industry, digital storage is a lot more fragile than anyone wants to admit.

There is a long list of digital formats that are nearly useless these days, because nothing exists to read them anymore. I don't know anyone with a working DASH machine these days. I'm sure someone has one, but trying to read a multitrack session recorded to that format could be a bit of a challenge. In 2050, is anyone going to be able to read your session from a 2005 version of Pro Tools? I wouldn't bet on it.

This is NOT just a problem that affects the music industry. I've re-designed entire PCBs because the original files from 2003 couldn't be opened / edited because the software doesn't exist anymore. I remember having to track down a machine that still had a version of Premiere CS4 on it because Creative Cloud couldn't open it without breaking some of the edits that were done.

Digital recording, from a technical standpoint, should be safer than analog tape, which is known to deteriorate over time, but "progress" has ensured that this is very often not the case.

 

[Mountain Goat]

Iron Mountain has stepped up and created a arsenal of old tape machines at least. They've got Sony DASH players and probably 3Ms too. It's the masters on proprietary early now-inoperable DAW hard drives that are really lost.

I was reading an engineers forum the other night, and somebody couldn't give away a Sony DASH player for free that cost $250,000 new. They had to pay the junk man to haul it away.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I've re-designed entire PCBs because the original files from 2003 couldn't be opened / edited because the software doesn't exist anymore.
Digital recording, from a technical standpoint, should be safer than analog tape, which is known to deteriorate over time, but "progress" has ensured that this is very often not the case.

Funny, the exact same PCB problem has happened to me a couple times, and it can be a real mess.

Regarding analog tape, from my experience I think it could be safely said that analog tape deteriorates less than people seem to think. I've worked with multiple tapes from the mid-1950s which are just as playable as when they were made. The two main problems with analog tapes, 'sticky shed syndrome' and 'vinegar syndrome' have long been solved. For that matter, 78 RPM discs which haven't been abused can sound like new too, as can vinyl decades hence. My DAT tapes from 20 years ago? Forgetaboutit.

 

[rdenney]

When I was recording the amateur orchestra in which I played back in the 80’s, I started with my Teac 4010, a good consumer open-reel deck, but 20 years old even then. (The same one I’m trying to bring back now.)

Then, I had access to a Tascam 22-2 half-track mastering deck, and we recorded at 15 ips. That wasn’t as much of an improvement as one would think.

The biggest improvement resulted from switching to a consumer VCR that recorded on VHS tape using VHS-HiFi. This system recorded the audio in the rastered video tracks (using the spinning head) using depth multiplexing. The tape speed was much higher and the noise floor much lower. That’s the closest I came to a truly live sound from tape, even compared to the pro-level 22-2, and digital wasn't appreciably better. But finding a good, working VHS HiFi deck seems harder that finding a good old Teac.

By the mid-90’s, I was seeing digital field recordings from well-heeled amateurs, using DAT, but at a much higher cost. But that cost plummeted faster than a brick dropped from an airplane.

Then came portable Sony mini-disc recordings, lossy though they were, mostly driven by bootleggers. That lasted about 12 minutes before people started recording directly onto laptops or even onto CDs. But I was out of that by then.

I still have all the old tapes, including those VHS tapes. I’ve spent a lot more trying to sustain my digital archive.

Rick “biased” Denney

 

[MarcT]

When I was recording the amateur orchestra in which I played back in the 80’s, I started with my Teac 4010, a good consumer open-reel deck, but 20 years old even then. (The same one I’m trying to bring back now.)

Then, I had access to a Tascam 22-2 half-track mastering deck, and we recorded at 15 ips. That wasn’t as much of an improvement as one would think.

The biggest improvement resulted from switching to a consumer VCR that recorded on VHS tape using VHS-HiFi. This system recorded the audio in the rastered video tracks (using the spinning head) using depth multiplexing. The tape speed was much higher and the noise floor much lower. That’s the closest I came to a truly live sound from tape, even compared to the pro-level 22-2, and digital wasn't appreciably better. But finding a good, working VHS HiFi deck seems harder that finding a good old Teac.

By the mid-90’s, I was seeing digital field recordings from well-heeled amateurs, using DAT, but at a much higher cost. But that cost plummeted faster than a brick dropped from an airplane.

Then came portable Sony mini-disc recordings, lossy though they were, mostly driven by bootleggers. That lasted about 12 minutes before people started recording directly onto laptops or even onto CDs. But I was out of that by then.

I still have all the old tapes, including those VHS tapes. I’ve spent a lot more trying to sustain my digital archive.

Rick “biased” Denney

Did you have any problems with "pumping" or other artifacts with VHS HiFi? It seems like I had a player at some point back in the day that offered VHS HiFi. Didn't VHS HiFi employ some sort of noise reduction system? I think the old DBX noise reduction system would cause some sort of "pumping" or fluttering.

 

[H-713]

Did you have any problems with "pumping" or other artifacts with VHS HiFi? It seems like I had a player at some point back in the day that offered VHS HiFi. Didn't VHS HiFi employ some sort of noise reduction system? I think the old DBX noise reduction system would cause some sort of "pumping" or fluttering.

Could be, though I was under the impression that VHS HiFi achieved its noise floor using a rotating head drum, since that achieves a very high head speed without moving all that much tape through the transport.

 

[restorer-john]

My DAT tapes from 20 years ago? Forgetaboutit.

My DATs from 1991 (30 years ago) are all fine. All tapes are Sony/Denon or TDK. Three working DAT decks that have all needed various repairs but, otherwise zero problems of a nature I couldn't fix.

 

[restorer-john]

Did you have any problems with "pumping" or other artifacts with VHS HiFi? It seems like I had a player at some point back in the day that offered VHS HiFi. Didn't VHS HiFi employ some sort of noise reduction system? I think the old DBX noise reduction system would cause some sort of "pumping" or fluttering.

I bought a TOTL Mitsubishi E70 SVHS machine in about 1990ish because it had superb audio capabilities and I was sick of waiting for 44.1kHz DAT to arrive (they were still 48kHz only).

It was amazing until you heard the super low level switching noise and once you heard it, there was no going back. But overall, an incredible achievement either on SP or LP. Full indexing and track addressing (track numbers you could allocate to individual pieces of music on the tape).

A gorgeous machine, but when I got my first DAT, it got put in its box, never to see the light of day again.

 

[001]

My apologies for going slightly off-thread; the Australian National Archives are greatly worried because they can't find persons to service/fix their equipment in order to digitise the vast majority of archives that are still awaiting processing. (I think I've got the gist of it)
There's mountains of historical audio awaiting digitisation. Ditto images and movies.
Are there some kind souls who can help? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06...isk-due-to-machine-becoming-obsolete/11222602
Feel free to correct my alarmist overtones, IMHO it appears to be a national Australian tragedy in the making.

 

[rdenney]

Did you have any problems with "pumping" or other artifacts with VHS HiFi? It seems like I had a player at some point back in the day that offered VHS HiFi. Didn't VHS HiFi employ some sort of noise reduction system? I think the old DBX noise reduction system would cause some sort of "pumping" or fluttering.

You are thinking of automatic gain control. Cameras had that (defeatable in some cases as I recall) but not the better home decks.

Rick “not remembering what deck was used” Denney

 

[MarcT]

Is tape the king of "analog only"? Are there tapes available that haven't been digitized at some point in the chain that can be A/B'd against digital?

Show your systems and how much trouble they are to put together, feed, and maintain.

As it seems there are a number of posters in this thread who have some interest in R2R tape decks, I'll share this article from Tuesday on the United Home Audio SuperDeck. I just read the whole article, which is very long. The author goes through much of the history of the R2R deck and then explains and reviews this UHA SuperDeck. I don't know how accurate the article is, but it was, at least to me, a very interesting read.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/united-home-audio-superdeck

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

As it seems there are a number of posters in this thread who have some interest in R2R tape decks, I'll share this article from Tuesday on the United Home Audio SuperDeck. I just read the whole article, which is very long. The author goes through much of the history of the R2R deck and then explains and reviews this UHA SuperDeck. I don't know how accurate the article is, but it was, at least to me, a very interesting read.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/united-home-audio-superdeck

The article is somewhat accurate, but that tape machine is pure 'audiophile' overkill, and not very good overkill at that since it is so limited in its capabilities, i.e. only one speed, only one EQ option, locked into only one track format, and way over complicated for what it does.

 

[Chrispy]

While I almost went to a RtR setup at one point, then digital appeared and made it unnecessary let alone limited recorded content let alone general difficulties in terms of supplies/maintenance over the long run....glad I never went this way. I wouldn't do it for "sonic" attributes in any case.

 

[MattHooper]

For whatever reason I don't mind the hassle of vinyl and turntables, but RtR looks like a huge off-putting hassle to me.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

but RtR looks like a huge off-putting hassle to me.

It is, unless one just likes to dick around with tape recorders.

 

[Mountain Goat]

Pretty much. A recording engineer [or an amateur recordist] could get a digital recorder in the 1980s, Like the Sony 501 that I used with a Betamax recorder. The advantages for recording classical music would still be there for people bouncing to analog tape: lower tape costs, lighter, more portable recording gear, greater dynamic range, better noise floor. A few things were bounced to analog for editing. I think Jack Vad had the first CD issued that was edited in the digital domain, mid-1980s [Ensemble Alcatraz, Visions and Miracles]. Early 1990's DAT recorders were everywhere, really great for recording classical music [usually from a microphone mix into two channels], not so good for rock/pop. So more classical recordings were issued from digital masters than pop/rock in the 1980's/ early 1990's.

You would definitely see more "DDD"s on the back of CDs in the 80s. I haven't listened to any of them in decades, but I remember some of them sounding "thin", possibly because of how Sony DASH could sound without the Apogee mods that many studios used:

https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/i...HPSESSID=kagtre2gukr8n0tsmhddus5td1#msg214920

 

[Doodski]

You would definitely see more "DDD"s on the back of CDs in the 80s. I haven't listened to any of them in decades, but I remember some of them sounding "thin", possibly because of how Sony DASH could sound without the Apogee mods that many studios used:

https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/i...HPSESSID=kagtre2gukr8n0tsmhddus5td1#msg214920

I bought some DDD CD's and found GRP releases (record label) to not be thin sounding and bright. Then there is the Ahmad Jamal Digital Works DDD release. Very thin and bright sounding.