-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Steve and club members on snake oil
- Thread starter arboleda
- Start date
Fluffy
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2019
- Messages
- 856
- Likes
- 1,426
Oh steve, as usual he's more into demagogy then being informative.
First of all, Snake oil is simply anything that doesn't do what it is claimed to do. Cables are not snake oil if they claim to transfer power/signals across distances or look pretty. They are snake oil if they claim to tighten your bass or extend the highs.
Second, the example with the watermelon placed on top of the speakers changing their sound – this is as far from snake oil as can be. Of course putting what is essentially a large water container on top of a speaker will affect it acoustically. It definitely makes a hell of a lot more difference than changing the power cable on the amplifier or putting cable risers.
Third thing, there is a difference between what you can hear and what is actually there. Despite what probably most of the people in the video think, human hearing is inherently flawed, and human perception overall is very unreliable. Even if under precise measurement a thing is making a difference, it doesn't mean that you can actually hear the difference. So I think that the stuff that doesn't work at all (measured to have no effect down to absurdly low DBs) are truly snake oil. Other things that do measure to have an effect but it's smaller than what humans can perceive, are not technically snake oil, because it does work. But the people who claim to be able to hear either one of those are fooling themselves in the same way.
Last thing, I just want to point out that all of the participants there are probably over 50-years-old (some look 70+). With what we know about deterioration of hearing over time, I think we should take most of the opinions there with a heavy dose skepticism.
First of all, Snake oil is simply anything that doesn't do what it is claimed to do. Cables are not snake oil if they claim to transfer power/signals across distances or look pretty. They are snake oil if they claim to tighten your bass or extend the highs.
Second, the example with the watermelon placed on top of the speakers changing their sound – this is as far from snake oil as can be. Of course putting what is essentially a large water container on top of a speaker will affect it acoustically. It definitely makes a hell of a lot more difference than changing the power cable on the amplifier or putting cable risers.
Third thing, there is a difference between what you can hear and what is actually there. Despite what probably most of the people in the video think, human hearing is inherently flawed, and human perception overall is very unreliable. Even if under precise measurement a thing is making a difference, it doesn't mean that you can actually hear the difference. So I think that the stuff that doesn't work at all (measured to have no effect down to absurdly low DBs) are truly snake oil. Other things that do measure to have an effect but it's smaller than what humans can perceive, are not technically snake oil, because it does work. But the people who claim to be able to hear either one of those are fooling themselves in the same way.
Last thing, I just want to point out that all of the participants there are probably over 50-years-old (some look 70+). With what we know about deterioration of hearing over time, I think we should take most of the opinions there with a heavy dose skepticism.
- Thread Starter
- #3
Agreed. I thought Steve set the tone right from the beginning when he implied snake oil is stuff that YOU don't think makes a difference and/or YOU think is too expensive. In other words, if YOU don't hear a difference with $20k speaker cables but I do, they're not snake oil. This is a very problematic definition in my opinion (not withstanding the one weak but possible defense that placebo effect might be a benefit). I much prefer your definition that the thing doesn't do what it claims to do.
How did he manage to squeeze his wife into an Oppo, and did he place it in the kitchen?
tuga
Major Contributor
Found some snake oil for sale downtown last Sunday, for only £3.99. Contact cleaner?
Can he tell from the sound whether the melon is ripe?
Shorty
Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2019
- Messages
- 182
- Likes
- 293
Well, it ’definitely makes a hell of a difference’. To what is anybody’s guess. Let’s pray the secret will be revealed shortly....
This is a real cliffhanger, folks! History is being made here, right before our very eyes!
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 7,329
- Likes
- 12,286
I can't tell, but are you rejecting the idea that placing a big watermelon on top of a speaker could affect the sound?
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 7,329
- Likes
- 12,286
Egads! If what was said during that video didn't re-enforce the stereotypes about audiophiles, the mere visuals would have!
The video re-enforces how audiophiles, such as those in the video, just don't have a reliable method in place to vet claims. They will reject some
tweaks as seeming to be implausible hence snake oil. But then tell us: "But I have to admit THIS tweak did make a difference when I tried it! I heard it make a difference."
In other words, they fall back on relying on the very same level of evidence used by other audiophiles for the claims they dismissed.
The video re-enforces how audiophiles, such as those in the video, just don't have a reliable method in place to vet claims. They will reject some
tweaks as seeming to be implausible hence snake oil. But then tell us: "But I have to admit THIS tweak did make a difference when I tried it! I heard it make a difference."
In other words, they fall back on relying on the very same level of evidence used by other audiophiles for the claims they dismissed.
This is how almost all of them went:
Police: where were you last night?
Answer: I swear, I did not rob the bank last night!
Everyone seems to know what is snake oil but try to defend it. So I guess in that regard, there is some acknowledgement of what is wrong.
I got a kick out of Steve being surprised by the one person believing in Ethernet cables change sound. I bet we will see him adopt that the moment someone loans him an expensive Ethernet cable to test.
Police: where were you last night?
Answer: I swear, I did not rob the bank last night!
Everyone seems to know what is snake oil but try to defend it. So I guess in that regard, there is some acknowledgement of what is wrong.
I got a kick out of Steve being surprised by the one person believing in Ethernet cables change sound. I bet we will see him adopt that the moment someone loans him an expensive Ethernet cable to test.
And a few that are too immature even for their young age.....
What a ridiculous video. I stopped watching after the first oddball talked about being 'converted' regarding cables. If this is what it is to be an 'audiophile' count me out, 100% out. The support, tacit or not, of writers and reviewers like SG for the kind of Barnum-style garbage that has infested the mainstream of the hobby is cringeworthy and offensive.
"A room full of audiophiles here, an audiophile meeting in Brooklyn"
Somebody should run an audio analyzer on all these audiophiles' systems and see how near (or far) they are from accuracy. Using maybe a 708P for comparison since that has amp + dac and even EQ built in.
Somebody should run an audio analyzer on all these audiophiles' systems and see how near (or far) they are from accuracy. Using maybe a 708P for comparison since that has amp + dac and even EQ built in.
Sgt. Ear Ache
Major Contributor
In Steve's world, it's all about the good feels man! If somebody says they can hear something, who are we to say they can't? And if some company wants to sell something for an outrageous amount of money based on claims that it can do something that it almost surely can't, well what's the problem really? If people who buy the stuff like what they hear it's all good man! Everyone just have fun!
Bravo! You just succinctly described the fall of Western civilization.
This guy is so full of it. It's all ego, fame, and being members of the in crowd. It's just a cult, a sad, stupid cult of old men.
Reality is bad ears. Reality is I can't hear above 15.2 khz. https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/
Reality is psychoacoustics. Reality is bad memory for sounds. Reality is that, more than anything, I want speakers that can play loudly, clearly, evenly, and to low frequencies.
Reality is bad ears. Reality is I can't hear above 15.2 khz. https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/
Reality is psychoacoustics. Reality is bad memory for sounds. Reality is that, more than anything, I want speakers that can play loudly, clearly, evenly, and to low frequencies.
Similar threads
