Stereophile's Jim Austin disagrees w Atkinson; says tubes have something that can't be measured

[Beave]

Hi Alan. Thx mate. In reference to your post, I do a lot of work with NASA JBL on the data center side. Privileged to be involved with the Mission to Mars program, and Project Goldstone. If you get a chance to visit the museum in La Cañada Flintridge CA, its memorable indeed.

When did NASA and JBL combine? Did Samsung buy NASA?

One of the truely great Audio design engineers, Elliott Milwood of Acoustic Sounds has designed an ultimate system, which I had the privilege of hearing quite recently. I’ve heard many high-end systems, some costing into the millions, and some like Thanh, that wonderful 80 year old man’s modest but incredible sounding system. Elliott’s masterpiece is centered on tube preamp and monoblocs driving highly modified Dali Helicon 800s (although they are not really that anymore). The crossover has been gutted, and a new external large boxed 3rd order crossover drives the speakers via umbilical. The mid and ribbon tweeter are of Elliot’s own design and sit on a thick rigid aluminium faceplate. The monblocs run in triode. Room is purpose built with treatments wall to wall. Yet a very beautiful place to sit. That system is the most incredible sound I have ever heard. Full scale, real to life sound. Suspension of disbelief. Honestly close ones eyes and it sounds so real. Not sure how everything measures but knowing the perfectionist Elliot us, I’d have to guess ruler flat frequency response. System dead quiet with no spurious noises. Macro and micro dynamics unreal, Bass incredible, with tubes.

Elliot is associated with Yarlung Records. Super high quality recordings of yound unknown talent from around the world, mainly classical, jazz etc. Recorded on the Messenger microphone preamp (tube). I own a 4-channel Messenger that was used by the studios for years until retired some years back. I have it on good authority within studios that many famous recording done on my unit.

Who is Elliott Milwood? I Googled the name but can't find anything.

 

[ronniebear]

Correct, he’s not saying there’s a magical force at play, he’s saying some people enjoy the measurable distortions and find it adds to their enjoyment of music.

As a newbie to ASR, I concur with your remarks.

Personally, I'm going through a phase of focusing more intently than before on the music itself and less on the equipment. My equipment at this time is laughably modest compared to what many here are using, and trivially cheap and cheerful compared to what attendees at a typical audio fair (like Pacific Audio Fest) are using, but I'm tired of the pretense involved in being a card-carrying audiophile. I have even rediscovered the joys of my 16/44 Redbook CDs played on my antique Adcom GCD-575 player, and look forward to a future upgrade using a better-performing DAC among the affordable units evaluated here at ASR.

 

[Newman]

My equipment at this time is laughably modest compared to what many here are using, and trivially cheap and cheerful compared to what attendees at a typical audio fair (like Pacific Audio Fest) are using, but I'm tired of the pretense involved in being a card-carrying audiophile.

You have come to the right place. No need to spend big for credibility here. The reviews on this site prove that one can achieve high-level listening experiences for modest investments. Even speakers can be got for modest outlay that deliver excellent experiences.

You still need to focus on gear to be sure that focusing on the music will be most rewarding, but no need to approach gear with a giant wallet or ego.

cheers

 

[SIY]

Correct, he’s not saying there’s a magical force at play, he’s saying some people enjoy the measurable distortions and find it adds to their enjoyment of music.

And yet, so rarely is the audibility of that distortion actually checked.

 

[Gibsonian]

I believe it can be measured, as distortion. The right kind, the good kind. If you're into that kind of thing.

 

[ahofer]

I believe it can be measured, as distortion. The right kind, the good kind. If you're into that kind of thing.

Consider @pkane’s project to simulate and test your hypothesis.

 

[Skeeter]

In Stereophile's review of the Mastersound 845 Compact integrated amplifier, which is a tube amp, editor in chief Jim Austin is once again publicly disagreeing with a reviewer; this time it's John Atkinson.

Basically, the TL;DR is that in the measurements section of the review, Atkinson (JA1) qualifies his comments by saying -- I paraphrase -- that he's commenting on its performance as a tube amp, with the recognition that tube amps don't perform as well as solid state. He adds the following explanation in the article's comments section: "When I write 'The amp performs along the lines of what one would expect for a tube amp with zero negative feedback,' the measured performance predicts departures from a neutral sonic character that will be audible."

To which Jim Austin (JA2) responds:

I just want to make it clear that the opinion expressed by JA1 here, though very well-supported, is not universally shared.

It's true--no one connected with reality can deny it--that certain features in old-school tube amps cause departures from neutrality, especially with loudspeakers with impedance curves that drop below, let us say, 4 ohms, which is most modern loudspeakers. No one can deny it because they are measurable at clearly audible levels. But there's another school of thought--embraced by certain other Stereophile writers--that believes that something less tangible is retained in some such amplifiers that is lost in demonstrably more accurate ones. Such opinions are based on subjective experience--self-perceived connection with the music. This makes them literally irrefutable-- they cannot be tested objectively, so they cannot be contradicted, which is annoying--yet (and this is my opinion, as the magazine's editor), in a magazine committed to subjective experience--to listening--above all else, such opinions must not be dismissed out of hand.

Edit: I thought I should add that the opinions/beliefs I'm referring to are held by many of the most experienced, devoted, passionate audiophiles. I do not take that lightly.

Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile


Still sticking to the "some things can't be measured" trope.

In other words ‘I don’t want to upset the tube manufacturers that take out lots of advertising space in my mag . . . ‘ ‍

 

[fpitas]

And 300Bs, even crappy ones, are beastly expensive. You do the math.

 

[DMill]

In other words ‘I don’t want to upset the tube manufacturers that take out lots of advertising space in my mag . . . ‘ ‍

I have a KT88 integrated with 4 power tubes. 2 preamp tubes 6sn7 and 2 E88s. Plus a couple rectifier tubes 5ub. Probably cost me $700 at least just to re-tube it. In my case they all have been replaced recently. the funny thing is I don’t play the amp much. It sits in my office while my Yamaha SS does better in every way. But it’s a fun little heater at times.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have a KT88 integrated with 4 power tubes. 2 preamp tubes 6sn7 and 2 E88s. Plus a couple rectifier tubes 5ub. Probably cost me $700 at least just to re-tube it. In my case they all have been replaced recently. the funny thing is I don’t play the amp much. It sits in my office while my Yamaha SS does better in every way. But it’s a fun little heater at times.

Is it ultralinear connected or triode. Easy to convert to triode if you want to do so.

 

[hearone]

It is simple -some form of quantum entanglement among all those hot, glowing tubes spooky tubes at a close distance. A run of the mill AP tester is just not going to cut it. LOL

 

[Sal1950]

Jim Austin is the "magic man" and firmly believes there is un-measureable magic in HiFi gear, at least in print he does.
IMHO he is too educated and enlightened a man to truly believe any of it, but it does work make his wallet fatter. His appointment as editor at Stereophile was quite possibly the worst thing to ever happen in High End audio. He takes the editorial position ever
further into La La Land, while subscription numbers continue to fall. May he and Stereophile along with MQA slip into the forgotten history of audio.

 

[PatentLawyer]

Jim Austin is the "magic man" and firmly believes there is un-measureable magic in HiFi gear, at least in print he does.
IMHO he is too educated and enlightened a man to truly believe any of it, but it does work make his wallet fatter. His appointment as editor at Stereophile was quite possibly the worst thing to ever happen in High End audio. He takes the editorial position ever
further into La La Land, while subscription numbers continue to fall. May he and Stereophile along with MQA slip into the forgotten history of audio.

I agree with most of this, especially the stuff about Austin. Stereophile cater to literally a dying breed; I hope they look at where the market is going and adapt.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I agree with most of this, especially the stuff about Austin. Stereophile cater to literally a dying breed; I hope they look at where the market is going and adapt.

Yeah, maybe. They've been catering to a dying breed for about 35 years at least. Regular surveys always show a somewhat affluent, older demographic. I think as those die off they are replaced by a few who grow prosperous with time and mostly replace those who die. So that hasn't really changed. That said, they do have less circulation, but that is true of anything still in print.

 

[atmasphere]

Back in the mid 1980s most of what this hot Stereophile mess is about was true. There were things we could hear but not measure.

That's changed; its peculiar that people seem to think that measurement technology hasn't advanced since then. But what has not changed is tradition- audiophiles still hang on to beliefs of the 1980s (or earlier) and try to live their lives as if these stories were true. There is also the issue of ignorance of the significance of some of the measurements (such as distortion vs frequency) and so just discount them out of hand.

 

[ahofer]

Back in the mid 1980s most of what this hot Stereophile mess is about was true. There were things we could hear but not measure.

That's changed; its peculiar that people seem to think that measurement technology hasn't advanced since then. But what has not changed is tradition- audiophiles still hang on to beliefs of the 1980s (or earlier) and try to live their lives as if these stories were true. There is also the issue of ignorance of the significance of some of the measurements (such as distortion vs frequency) and so just discount them out of hand.

Imagine a different world where the audiophiles and vendors all get down to figuring out the measurements that correspond to their preferences, and then zero in on delivering that.

Or maybe that really is futile, and that’s why we’re stuck in the random walk of ”try everything-everything matters” except measurements.

 

[atmasphere]

Imagine a different world where the audiophiles and vendors all get down to figuring out the measurements that correspond to their preferences, and then zero in on delivering that.

Or maybe that really is futile, and that’s why we’re stuck in the random walk of ”try everything-everything matters” except measurements.

I'm very convinced that the last thing the industry wants is a market where they could tell from the measurements what something actually sounds like

 

[egellings]

And 300Bs, even crappy ones, are beastly expensive. You do the math.

I wonder why a tube with a relatively simple internal structure is so vastly more expensive than a tube, such as a sweep tube of beam pentode, with its much more complex internal workings. Must be its boutique nature, I 'spoze.

 

[fpitas]

I wonder why a tube with a relatively simple internal structure is so vastly more expensive than a tube, such as a sweep tube of beam pentode, with its much more complex internal workings. Must be its boutique nature, I 'spoze.

"Because they can get it" is the most likely.

 

[egellings]

"Because they can get it" is the most likely.

Sometimes I get half a notion to just build one of those 300B amps to hear what the buzz is about them.