• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Step response question

P

ppataki

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 7, 2019
Messages
1,729
Likes
2,048
Location
Budapest
I have two full range speakers + two subs in the front. I used Jriver to set up the crossover and also tried FabFilter Pro Q3 'linear phase - very high' mode
Then I ran a Dirac Live 3 calibration and here are the step responses

Jriver:

1597654337790.png


Pro Q3 linear phase - very high:

1597654364114.png


Which one would you vote for?
I guess the second looks better but for some reason I find the first one to be 'faster' by listening to it
I would really appreciate any comments/advice

Many thanks
 
ppataki said:
I have two full range speakers + two subs in the front. I used Jriver to set up the crossover and also tried FabFilter Pro Q3 'linear phase - very high' mode
Then I ran a Dirac Live 3 calibration and here are the step responses

Jriver:

View attachment 78584

Pro Q3 linear phase - very high:

View attachment 78585

Which one would you vote for?
I guess the second looks better but for some reason I find the first one to be 'faster' by listening to it
I would really appreciate any comments/advice

Many thanks
Click to expand...

In order to evaluate those 2 step responses you need to show them with x scale from -30ms to +30ms.
 
QMuse said:
Yes, like that. Both step responses are actually very good. 2nd one is showing some mild pre-ringing which I highly doubt to be audible so, assuming they both have the same frequency response, I'm pretty sure they would sound the same.
Click to expand...
How do you interpret that? I'm interested in that piece of knowledge.
 
daftcombo said:
How do you interpret that? I'm interested in that piece of knowledge.
Click to expand...

2nd one is closer to the ideal step response. That means it's excess phase (difference between actual phase response and minimum phase response) is close to 0 throughout the frequency range. As that small pre-ringing is not audible I would probably go with the 2nd.
 
Does anyone have an example of pre-ringing that is actually bad and probably audible?
 
and what speakers ypo
ppataki said:
I have two full range speakers + two subs in the front. I used Jriver to set up the crossover and also tried FabFilter Pro Q3 'linear phase - very high' mode
Then I ran a Dirac Live 3 calibration and here are the step responses

Jriver:

View attachment 78584

Pro Q3 linear phase - very high:

View attachment 78585

Which one would you vote for?
I guess the second looks better but for some reason I find the first one to be 'faster' by listening to it
I would really appreciate any comments/advice

Many thanks
Click to expand...

what speakers are this ?. the step response look very good. measure of step response should always without EQ or maybe linear phase EQ. But to get better measure results try in REW the spectrogram with this settings. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...oes-it-really-matter.1999/page-14#post-702559 maybe you can tell which speaker it is and show your spectrogram ?
 
@bennybbbx I have changed my setup since those above measurements were taken
The speakers are the same: Audio Nirvana Classic 12" ferrite speakers in a sealed box but I have moved away from linear phase crossover since the pre-ringing can be clearly heard and now I am using mixed phase crossover that keeps (more or less) the same phase characteristics as the linear phase crossover but with no audible pre-ringing
Also I have added two subwoofers (Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4) in a Double Bass Array setup

Here is the new step response curve with Dirac Live 3:

a bit zoomed out (again the pre-ringing you see there is not audible at all)
1615441802824.png


zoomed in:
1615441948794.png


Here is the slice using 1/12 smooting at 1kHz:

1615441871759.png
 
ppataki said:
Just realized that the Spectrogram settings were not the same as yours
Here is the updated version:

View attachment 117538
Click to expand...

this is really amazing a 12 inch speaker so fast. but it must be true because this is a full range speaker. the 12 inch should reach upto 20 khz. I see there are also 6.5 inch alnico speaker. maybe i should put them in the kali. alnico is stronger magnet. in theory should faster too.

can you please post the spectrum slice how it look at 15 khz ?
 
@bennybbbx Here is the curve for 15kHz

1615466878220.png


From what I can tell this looks pretty good but you can tell me your opinion

I switched to full range speakers last summer (I sold my Nubert nuVero 140 set) since the sound is way better - much more live, like you can "see" all the instruments in front of you; also the soundstage is much closer to you but has adequate depth too
I need to add though that you need to use Dirac Live 3 or equivalent, otherwise it sounds really bad (but with Dirac the sound will be better than anything else with or without Dirac)
There is also beaming (sweetspot is very narrow) which is considered bad on this forum but I consider it as a feature and not a bug and that actually allows you to have an extremely flat late reflection IR curve since the sound is beamed to you only and not to all over the place in your listening room

Regarding driver speed I consider the so-called electrodynamic damping of the speaker when choosing the appropriate driver
It is calculated like BL^2 / Re - you can see both BL and Re among the Thiele-Small parameters of a driver - the higher this calculated value is the faster and more precise the driver will sound
Usually the bigger the full range driver is the bigger this value will become - I have started with 6.5" (Markaudio, Morel, Monacor) drivers then switched to 10" (Audio Nirvana) and now I am at 12" (still Audio Nirvana) and I can tell you the bigger the better!
Next week I will receive a pair of Fane 12" full range drivers (Sovereign 12-250TC) to compare with Audio Nirvana - looking forward to that (I will share my experience in this forum in a separate topic)
 
ppataki said:
@bennybbbx Here is the curve for 15kHz

View attachment 117580

From what I can tell this looks pretty good but you can tell me your opinion

I switched to full range speakers last summer (I sold my Nubert nuVero 140 set) since the sound is way better - much more live, like you can "see" all the instruments in front of you; also the soundstage is much closer to you but has adequate depth too
I need to add though that you need to use Dirac Live 3 or equivalent, otherwise it sounds really bad (but with Dirac the sound will be better than anything else with or without Dirac)
There is also beaming (sweetspot is very narrow) which is considered bad on this forum but I consider it as a feature and not a bug and that actually allows you to have an extremely flat late reflection IR curve since the sound is beamed to you only and not to all over the place in your listening room

Regarding driver speed I consider the so-called electrodynamic damping of the speaker when choosing the appropriate driver
It is calculated like BL^2 / Re - you can see both BL and Re among the Thiele-Small parameters of a driver - the higher this calculated value is the faster and more precise the driver will sound
Usually the bigger the full range driver is the bigger this value will become - I have started with 6.5" (Markaudio, Morel, Monacor) drivers then switched to 10" (Audio Nirvana) and now I am at 12" (still Audio Nirvana) and I can tell you the bigger the better!
Next week I will receive a pair of Fane 12" full range drivers (Sovereign 12-250TC) to compare with Audio Nirvana - looking forward to that (I will share my experience in this forum in a separate topic)
Click to expand...

there can not so much see because you better zoom. here are 3 2 way speakers with tweater. kali lp6 iloud mtm and presonus eris 3.5. I notice that smaller 2 way speaker sound better and give faster step response at 1 khz. see my measure in other threads.

I think that you hear better room with wide band speaker is because you are able to hear interaural delay time. There is a example video and another test in website that explain this. Can you hear diffrence ?.

I never hear large wide band speakers, because there are selden so shop have this e see. but your measure results look good. I have a t.racks mini dsp and i use a hearing curve that reduce high frequency so a wide band speaker look as a perfect speaker for me, because i need no crying high freq.

do you mean this markaudio speaker ? have you a measure of this markaudio speaker ?. it go upto 34 khz so should be even more faster. https://www.amazon.de/Markaudio-CHR-120-Range-Magnesium-Woofer/dp/B08RK1HY6J
eris 15 khz spectrogram.jpg
eq setting.jpg
 

Attachments

  • kali 15 khz spectrogram.jpg
    kali 15 khz spectrogram.jpg
    565.3 KB · Views: 105
  • mtm 15 khz spectrogram.jpg
    mtm 15 khz spectrogram.jpg
    543.9 KB · Views: 107
Last edited:
@bennybbbx
OK, I see your point, here is the zoomed in version:

1615478662035.png


I can hear the difference in the video, even on my Logitech desktop system :)
I have measurements about the Markaudio Alpair 10p - although the CHR120 is definitely worth trying; I have made box simulations for it and looks very promising. Similary the CHN110 also
We will use five of the CHN110 in my neighbor's home cinema (full DIY project also) - I will post measurements once available
 
ppataki said:
@bennybbbx
OK, I see your point, here is the zoomed in version:

View attachment 117609

I can hear the difference in the video, even on my Logitech desktop system :)
I have measurements about the Markaudio Alpair 10p - although the CHR120 is definitely worth trying; I have made box simulations for it and looks very promising. Similary the CHN110 also
We will use five of the CHN110 in my neighbor's home cinema (full DIY project also) - I will post measurements once available
Click to expand...

there can see my high freq speaker of 2 way system look not faster. can you post the alpair 10p spectrum slice at 1 khz ?. the strange thing is there are no active 6 inch wideband speaker so far i see. or did you know complete wideband speakers with good systems that can buy at low price ?. 200-300 eur or $ ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

K
Meridian inversion PEQ method - comments or caveats?
Replies
10
Views
717
OCA
OCA
S
Optimizer for both impulse and frequency room response on multiple subwoofers with MiniDSP2x4HD
Replies
3
Views
823
bachatero
bachatero
V
My Measurements - SPL & Step Response of Genelec 8361a & 8320
Replies
18
Views
1K
AnalogSteph
AnalogSteph
bachatero
Does step/impulse response matter?
Replies
12
Views
1K
sam_adams
sam_adams
R
Two Subs with different Settings
Replies
9
Views
1K
Fredygump
F
Back
Top Bottom