Starting with turntables

[MattHooper]

It's a bit of a paradox, and I've encountered it quite often. When you ask for something specific in this forum, it seems to summon opponents who are eager to champion the exact opposite cause. It's almost comical, really.

So damned true. The amount of projection and not being able to think beyond one's own goals can be amazing.

Fortunately there were also members who were quite helpful.

 

[Robin L]

I don’t really agree, as new and used vinyl is more available now that it has been in decades. I can find decent new releases at Target and Barnes & Noble. It is an expensive time to get into vinyl, though. Those new albums will go for $25 or more each. Discogs made bargain used albums harder to find, but made more used albums available in general.

Finding great gear is a bit harder as a lot of junk is on the market for cheap. Some people advocate for used turntables, but I’d urge caution. It can be hard to tell a turntable that doesn’t turn at the right speed or has worn bearings if you don’t know what to look for. The $30 special at the thrift store may be there for a good reason. A turntable restoration project is not generally what newbies are looking for.

There are good new carts under $150 that track well and sound great, but they are much harder to find under $50. A used MM cart may not be a bad gamble if you can find a new replacement stylus easily. Another strong note of caution in buying used carts with the expectation of using the existing stylus.

Phono preamps are a whole other area of slippery slope.

My main point was that a newbie buying used LPs would be better off with a "DJ" cartridge as they track worn and old LPs better than higher quality cartridges that have lower tracking forces. I know this from lots of experience.

 

[MattHooper]

I have 3-4, but I will get around 20 more from relatives. As I have written also above, okay I implied, I Will collect their LPs once they can not say "no" anymore, as a way to remember them

Hi alaios,

I hope you enjoy whatever turntable you purchase. I spin a lot of records, and I have some familiarity with some of the turntables in your budget, if only reading the occasional review. Fluance, Audio Technica, and Project seem to come up a lot in "best affordable" lists. My own eyes get attracted to the Fluance and Project tables, if only because even for affordable tables, they can look quite nice. I don't know how much you care about the aesthetics. I like a nice looking turntable, makes looking at it and interacting with it more pleasurable. But others here have a better technical grasp on what to look for, if you are looking for decent audio performance in your budget.

I'm curious: generally what you are expecting out of playing records? Do you see it as only the nostalgic connection? Or do you think you'll be paying any attention to sound quality, and care about that? If so, as some have pointed out, if one goes too cheap then you can end up with particularly crappy sound quality with a turntable. But if you get a decent quality turntable, you may actually find yourself thinking "hey, this actually sounds pretty nice too..." And if it's more pleasurable, you may find yourself motivated to purchase more records. Careful of that rabbit hole......I know it well.

Anyway, just wondering about what your hopes and expectations are in getting a turntable. Cheers.

 

[Angsty]

My main point was that a newbie buying used LPs would be better off with a "DJ" cartridge as they track worn and old LPs better than higher quality cartridges that have lower tracking forces. I know this from lots of experience.

That makes sense. DJ carts are designed with different properties, such as sticking to tracks like glue.

The Nagaoka DJ-03HD is another good alternative to the M44, which is out of production.

 

[Angsty]

Careful of that rabbit hole......I know it well.

The rabbit hole is real.

 

[Angsty]

U-Turn is clearing out older versions of the Orbit Plus for $300. It’s a solid turntable for the price. But, if you buy one, make sure to also get the tonearm lifter - they used to be an optional accessory.

Orbit Plus Turntable (Gen 1)

Get more out of your vinyl with the Orbit Plus. Features an upgraded platter and Ortofon cartridge. Shop now!

uturnaudio.com

 

[MattHooper]

U-Turn is clearing out older versions of the Orbit Plus for $300. It’s a solid turntable for the price. But, if you buy one, make sure to also get the tonearm lifter - they used to be an optional accessory.

Orbit Plus Turntable (Gen 1)

Get more out of your vinyl with the Orbit Plus. Features an upgraded platter and Ortofon cartridge. Shop now!

uturnaudio.com

U-Turn! I was struggling to remember that other name of well regarded, nice looking budget turntables! Whew, glad to have that brain freeze unfrozen.

 

[Zapper]

I don’t really agree, as new and used vinyl is more available now than it has been in decades. I can find decent new releases at Target and Barnes & Noble. It is an expensive time to get into vinyl, though. Those new albums will go for $25 or more each. Discogs made bargain used albums harder to find, but made more used albums available in general.

I agree. I think vinyl isn't expensive now - the records are equivalent to what they used to cost and the gear is much cheaper.

Inflation calculator tells me that $25 today equals $8.76 in 1985, which was the last time I bought a lot of new records. That was a typical price of new release record back then. So not too expensive today in comparison.

Finding great gear is a bit harder as a lot of junk is on the market for cheap. Some people advocate for used turntables, but I’d urge caution. It can be hard to tell a turntable that doesn’t turn at the right speed or has worn bearings if you don’t know what to look for. The $30 special at the thrift store may be there for a good reason. A turntable restoration project is not generally what newbies are looking for.

Turntables and cartridges are cheaper now, with more features. The AT-VM95ML is the best cartridge I've ever had, and it's cheap - $59 in 1985 dollars! And my AT-LP120XBT-USB is $112 in 1985 dollars, which would have been amazing even without built-in preamp, USB DAC, and BT. You couldn't buy a decent turntable with a preamp, and the latter 2 hadn't been developed yet.

There are good new carts under $150 that track well and sound great, but they are much harder to find under $50. A used MM cart may not be a bad gamble if you can find a new replacement stylus easily. Another strong note of caution in buying used carts with the expectation of using the existing stylus.

Phono preamps are a whole other area of slippery slope.

Phono preamps built in to turntables now are better than many discrete ones in 1985.

What is striking from today's perspective is how expensive audio used to be. LP records were expensive like they are today. I remember that budget audiophile gear cost around $300 per component in the mid 1980's - equivalent to $856 today. I didn't own a car back then because I spent all my meagre salary on LPs and audio gear!

 

[Leporello]

Some members in the Audio Science Review Forum perceive listening to vinyl records and the associated manual tasks like cleaning and placing them on the turntable as laborious, especially when compared to the convenience of streaming. I'd like to counter this by highlighting that certain cultural practices and pleasures often involve immersing oneself more deeply, cultivating rituals, and embracing such experiences. The essence lies in the idea that embracing certain cultural practices can bring about a richer and more fulfilling enjoyment, even if it involves a bit more effort.

Sure, but wouldn't it be more worthy to innovate new cultural practices and embrace those? There is nothing inherently valuable in playing a record (unlike playing an instrument, for instance).

 

[computer-audiophile]

Sure, but wouldn't it be more worthy to innovate new cultural practices and embrace those?

Yes, why not? Consuming fast food is also a convenient cultural practice of today for getting full.

 

[Multicore]

Sure, but wouldn't it be more worthy to innovate new cultural practices and embrace those?

There's a "magic happens" step missing between "innovate" and "new cultural practice". Changing culture so much that you can properly speak of a cultural practice that people could identify and embrace is not easy. Another word for such a "new cultural practice" is "fashion." I'd love to have some of that magic to turn my cultural innovations into fashions.

The vinyl revival is what it is. For me it's depressing because it is so symptomatic our oppressive, anti-intellectual, retrograde zeitgeist. For others it is comforting. And for a lot of ASR people it's a standard schism for ritual arguments.

 

[computer-audiophile]

For me it's depressing because it is so symptomatic our oppressive, anti-intellectual, retrograde zeitgeist.

As Søren Kierkegaard once pondered, 'Life can only be understood backward; but it must be lived forwards.' I agree with that.
But I think it's an exaggeration to label vinyl record listening as anti-intellectual.

 

[Multicore]

But I think it's an exaggeration to label vinyl record listening as anti-intellectual.

I agree. I leveled that accusation against our zeitgeist. And I'll accuse it of a lot of other things too but probably should not.

 

[Zapper]

The vinyl revival is what it is. For me it's depressing because it is so symptomatic our oppressive, anti-intellectual, retrograde zeitgeist. For others it is comforting. And for a lot of ASR people it's a standard schism for ritual arguments.

I agree in the limited context of the subjectivist "analog is superior to digital" context. But in the broader context of people enjoying old records, I disagree. A lot of the issues of our "retrograde zeitgeist" have their root in a culture separated from physical reality. Spinning vinyl is a pleasant way to disconnect from the ether and immerse in the physical.

 

[MattHooper]

I agree. I think vinyl isn't expensive now - the records are equivalent to what they used to cost and the gear is much cheaper.

Sometimes I catch myself thinking "wow vinyl is expensive now" but on thinking about it I believe you are right.

The first thing is that people for a while got used to really cheap vinyl because vinyl had gone out of favour and it was almost all used records which you could find cheap.
That's not what vinyl was like when it was actually the main format. You were mostly buying new albums and the prices aren't that out of line with what we used to pay,
inflation taken account for.

The other thing I notice is that, if vinyl is so prohibitively expensive, why do so many vinyl enthusiasts have such large record collections? I see far more large record collections than I ever remember when I was young during vinyl's hey-day. Even today I have a far bigger record collection than I, or my music-loving father, ever had in the 70's/80s.
Somehow, many people seem to afford large collections.

 

[MattHooper]

The vinyl revival is what it is. For me it's depressing because it is so symptomatic our oppressive, anti-intellectual, retrograde zeitgeist. For others it is comforting. And for a lot of ASR people it's a standard schism for ritual arguments.

What do you find specifically "anti-intellectual" about collecting or enjoying records?

If, for instance, it's because it's somehow "backwards looking" because it's a technology more of the past, does this mean any such interest in the past is "anti-intellectual?"
Like experts in classical music, or greek mythology/art etc are "anti-intellectual?" Just wondering about your thought process on this one.

 

[Leporello]

Like experts in classical music, or greek mythology/art etc are "anti-intellectual?" Just wondering about your thought process on this one.

Lowering a needle on a record is culturally as significant as expertise on classics?

 

[Robin L]

The first thing is that people for a while got used to really cheap vinyl because vinyl had gone out of favour and it was almost all used records which you could find cheap.
That's not what vinyl was like when it was actually the main format. You were mostly buying new albums and the prices aren't that out of line with what we used to pay,
inflation taken account for.

My memory is that back in the mid-1970s, independent record stores (Poo-Bah's in Pasadena California comes to mind) would be shifting promos. I'd bring in promo records from my job at the Wherehouse in exchange for "used" LPs, often for 1/2 price, of classical promos. Those "used" records were often promos, thus unplayed or only played once. I'd also buy new LPs there with my promos. Radio DJs and record reviewers would do the same. Later, in the 1980s and 1990s in Berkeley California, I'd exchange promo CDs for LPs (often used) and CDs (ditto) at Amoeba and Rasputin's. Back then there were a lot more discs like these available than today, so it's no illusion that the hobby has become more expensive. CDs are different than LPs in that they are so easily ripped, so that many people copy the discs and then send them back to the shops. Right now the shops are no longer buying them back. But people are more likely to hang on to their LPs, something to do with the fact that they aren't so easy to copy, and that much of the attraction is in the 12" x12" packaging.

One more thing, nobody was producing deluxe remastered 45 rpm two disc sets for $45 that in their initial single disc 33 & 1/3 incarnation went for $6.98. The first I can recall of deluxe remastered LPs was in the early 1980s. The priciest LPs at the time were direct to disc recordings and Telarc's first digital releases, followed by Japanese imports. Sheffield Labs and Telarc went for about $18.00, Japanese imports for about $12.00.

 

[Robin L]

Like experts in classical music, or greek mythology/art etc are "anti-intellectual?"

Just glancing at my five complete sets of Beethoven's nine symphonies can drop my IQ by a full 10 points.
And don't get me started on historical recordings.

 

[JP]

What do you find specifically "anti-intellectual" about collecting or enjoying records?

If, for instance, it's because it's somehow "backwards looking" because it's a technology more of the past, does this mean any such interest in the past is "anti-intellectual?"
Like experts in classical music, or greek mythology/art etc are "anti-intellectual?" Just wondering about your thought process on this one.

Not a reply to you specifically, but I find this notion a little comical as some of the brightest folks I know have had an interest in the technical nature of vinyl. It encompasses a myriad of disciplines and there’s an aspect of rediscovery as a lot of information isn’t available, or was never published. There’s a great deal of mental exercise that is applicable even today.

I can’t see how the act of consuming music, regardless of format, is remotely intellectual in a broad sense.