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SOS… Lynx Hilo - Imperium - KH750 - KH80

Toby86

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I’d like to find some answers to the fatigue I’m experiencing when listening on the following system.

Room is treated, with MA1 doing light attenuation of the low end (-3-4dB). Room decay times are good. Laser measurement tool was used for all physical alignments of speakers and MA 1.

Lynx Hilo - Line Out +24dBu (no attenuation)
Imperium NG
Neumann KH750
Nuemann KH80
(Neumann Monitor Alignment app set to output of 100dB)

Listening distance of 1.6m

Speakers are 1.6m apart

Listening height and MA1 mic placement is 1.3m (which was measured from the acoustical centre of the KH80, and not the tweeter as advised by Neumann. What are your thoughts on this over a mic to tweeter height?

I’d like to find out some opinions on the above and the following questions if anyone has time:

Is the Lynx Hilo output of +24dBu too hot for the monitor controller (Imperium NG) and in turn is that too hot for the KH750 and KH80s?

Could it be that with playback being @ 192k that the Neumann KH750 - KH80s are converting to 48K and this part of the cause?

I can only describe what I hear as subtle crunch, and over time it is quite tiring.

Thanks for your time!
 

Joachim Herbert

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What are the Lynx output options?

What is the Neumann input setting?

Why the Imperium NG?

My take: Unreasonable level. 192 > 48 don't matter at all. Though: What is native SR?
 

antcollinet

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It would be much easier to answer this sort of question if people would add the descriptor of the equipment item (what is it - eg pre-amp, amp, speaker sub etc.) rather than just a model number. (Not directed only at you - many people do this)

Not doing so requires people to either be already familiar with the manufacturers model numbers, or be forced to look it up. Which just adds effort to the attempt to answer the question.


Now to answer - in my experience fatigue is nearly always a result of in room frequency response. Can you measure this for your system and put the result here?
 
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Toby86

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What are the Lynx output options?

What is the Neumann input setting?

Why the Imperium NG?

My take: Unreasonable level. 192 > 48 don't matter at all. Though: What is native SR?
Hi, thank you for the reply!

Lynx Hilo Output Trims: +18, +20, +22, +24dB

Neumann input level is dictated by the MA 1 monitor alignment app.

Imperium NG is a passive monitor controller.
 
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Toby86

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It would be much easier to answer this sort of question if people would add the descriptor of the equipment item (what is it - eg pre-amp, amp, speaker sub etc.) rather than just a model number. (Not directed only at you - many people do this)

Not doing so requires people to either be already familiar with the manufacturers model numbers, or be forced to look it up. Which just adds effort to the attempt to answer the question.


Now to answer - in my experience fatigue is nearly always a result of in room frequency response. Can you measure this for your system and put the result here?
Sorry.

Lynx Hilo - Audio Interface
2400 Audio Imperium NG - Passive Monitor Controller
Neumann KH750 - Subwoofer
Neumann KH80s - Satellite Speakers

My room is +-3dB @ the listening position.

Thank you for your reply!
 

Joachim Herbert

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The manual begs to differ. There are more reasonable options for output (right column below). Also please note that +24dBV is maximum input for the KH80, not recommended. As the manual states "these are best set to a value that matches the input calibration of the device connected to the Hilo’s Line Outputs, thus preventing clipping or insufficient signal level." This might be happening in your case.

1694596405519.png

You also may consider taking the monitor controller out and just user Lynx volume. They probably did a decent job.
 
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Toby86

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The manual begs to differ. There are more reasonable options for output (right column below). Also please note that +24dBV is maximum input for the KH80, not recommended. As the manual states "these are best set to a value that matches the input calibration of the device connected to the Hilo’s Line Outputs, thus preventing clipping or insufficient signal level." This might be happening in your case.

View attachment 311680
You also may consider taking the monitor controller out and just user Lynx volume. They probably did a decent job.
Thank you, Joachim. With the monitor controller feeding the KH750, which in turn feeds the KH80s I went with the +24dBu line output trim on the Lynx Hilo as that is the max input level of the KH750. I have tried Line Out trim at +18dBu and all other variables. Also the reason for the monitor controller is that the line out of the Lynx Hilo is digitally controlled (analogue attenuation isn’t possible).
 

Joachim Herbert

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Again, please use a setting between 0 and +6dBu. Digital volume control is not a bad thing when done properly. Lynx probably does it pretty well.

Give it a try to get sort of baseline.
 
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Toby86

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Can anyone offer any thoughts on the “acoustical axis (centre)” of the Nuemann KH80 with the MA 1 calibration? Initially I calibrated with the listening position at the same height as the tweeter (ears and tweeter), adjusting my seat. But after reading the KH80 manual I have followed the instructed acoustical axis (centre) instead (photo attached), again adjusting my seat to match the height (ears to acoustical centre).

Lastly, is the 1.6m listening position and 1.6m width between the KH80s too far, perhaps?
IMG_5275.jpeg
 

kemmler3D

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My guess is that 1.6m is fine, but I was looking at Amir's reviews of the KH80 to look for clues.

In some of the measurements the treble response actually falls off quite a bit when he measured away from the tweeter axis.

I was going to say - if you're not aligning your ear with the tweeter, you may end up losing more treble than you realize, raising gain to compensate, and then getting fatigued as a result. It might also affect your mixes which could end up too bright.

There's also the fact that you're feeding a really hot signal into the system. I'd lower the gain into the controller / sub and see how it goes. If that doesn't fix it, try aiming the tweeters more directly at your ears, I guess.
 

test1223

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I would try a parametric eq with 2.5kHz, -2.5dB and a Q-factor of 2.

P.S. if you can still hear 18kHz I would also try to use a peq there or a bit higher or lower with about -4dB and a Q-factor of 4 or 5.
 

Joachim Herbert

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We are talking give and take 2 inches at 5 feet distance - this doesn't make much a difference, given the directivity of this speaker.

More of academic interest, not in room.
 

Joachim Herbert

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I would try a parametric eq with 2.5kHz, -2.5dB and a Q-factor of 2.

P.S. if you can still hear 18kHz I would also try to use a peq there or a bit higher or lower with about -4dB and a Q-factor of 4 or 5.
Not sure what this is supposed to fix.
 

antcollinet

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My room is +-3dB @ the listening position.
1 - Is that flat (horizontal) or do you have a downward slope left to right (from low frequencies to high).

2 - You say room. I assume you mean speakers/system and room.

3 - Have you put a bass boost in your house curve?
 
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test1223

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Not sure what this is supposed to fix.
The minor directivity error of the KH80 at 2.5kHz can be annoying and the tweeter has a dome breakup at about 18kHz which is smeared with an diffuser but can still sound not good if you can still hear these frequencies good enough. Both issues can be tamed with the p-eq I suggested.
 

Jon AA

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Can anyone offer any thoughts on the “acoustical axis (centre)” of the Nuemann KH80 with the MA 1 calibration?
Personally, I'd follow Neumann's instructions. If you need another reference point, here is how mine measures at the above pictured axis.

KH801m2mStand.jpg


Silly me, I didn't think to measure it on the tweeter axis just to see the difference. Sorry. After seeing that response I figured "They know what they're doing...."
 
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Toby86

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My guess is that 1.6m is fine, but I was looking at Amir's reviews of the KH80 to look for clues.

In some of the measurements the treble response actually falls off quite a bit when he measured away from the tweeter axis.

I was going to say - if you're not aligning your ear with the tweeter, you may end up losing more treble than you realize, raising gain to compensate, and then getting fatigued as a result. It might also affect your mixes which could end up too bright.

There's also the fact that you're feeding a really hot signal into the system. I'd lower the gain into the controller / sub and see how it goes. If that doesn't fix it, try aiming the tweeters more directly at your ears, I guess.
Very interesting. I’m reading that review as I type. Thank you!
 
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Toby86

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1 - Is that flat (horizontal) or do you have a downward slope left to right (from low frequencies to high).

2 - You say room. I assume you mean speakers/system and room.

3 - Have you put a bass boost in your house curve?
1. Downward slope

2. Yes, the system in room

3. I have a naturally occurring bass tilt (Neumann DSP reduces it to a 2dB low Q factor tilt upward)
 

antcollinet

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1. Downward slope

2. Yes, the system in room

3. I have a naturally occurring bass tilt (Neumann DSP reduces it to a 2dB low Q factor tilt upward)
I'd be tempted to increase the slope - if the DSP allows you to. And perhaps boost the bass a little more.
 
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