Some "interesting" claims by Pro-Ject re: their new CD transport box...

[DamianW]

All the Sony BD players you can hack to dump SACDs dump the full, complete SACD ISO - stereo and MCH DSD.

It's great, I've ripped over a hundred with mine, and I'll never ever to spend a dime on an expensive, flaky SACD transport to put bit-perfect DSD content through any DAC I damn well please - even in multi-channel.

Brilliant!

 

[Sal1950]

Which model was it? Does it rip the DSD layer or just the PCM layer?

I got a Sony BPD-S5100 but there a lot of Sony players capable.
Yes it rips the pure DSD layer in either 2 or 5.1 multich files.
The best source of info I know of and where I learned is here,

Rip SACD with a Blu-ray player

Welcome to the HiFi Haven Rip SACD with a Blu-ray player thread! This thread does not intend to rehash or further detail the well established PlayStation 3 SACD ripping method, nor the more recent Blu-ray player method, that in each case typically involves use of a command line interface (CLI)...

hifihaven.org

Nice folks always willing to help.

 

[fordiebianco]

All the Sony BD players you can hack to dump SACDs dump the full, complete SACD ISO - stereo and MCH DSD.

It's great, I've ripped over a hundred with mine, and I'll never ever to spend a dime on an expensive, flaky SACD transport to put bit-perfect DSD content through any DAC I damn well please - even in multi-channel.

Can you signpost us to instructions please?

 

[dadregga]

Can you signpost us to instructions please?

I got my info from the same spot Sal linked there - that's where you want to go.

The list of supported models is here in that thread: https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/#post-69000


There are a couple of ways to do it - the way I prefer involves using SACDExtractGUI/sacd-ripper and dumping the SACD ISO over my home network from the player to my PC. From there you can use the same SACDExtractGUI tool to split the ISO into Stereo/MCH DSD files, and you're off to the races.

 

[Rob from Sydney]

With all due respect, I have just slogged through 4 pages of pretty ordinary jokes and condemnation of a product that no one has actually heard, yeah? I teach my students that condemnation prior to investigation keeps us in ignorance. I know nothing about this spinner but it has received positive reviews - from people that have tried it - everywhere except here, where it seems no one has actually heard it. Even though this is my first post, this 'pile on' seems a little strange to me.

 

[dadregga]

With all due respect, I have just slogged through 4 pages of pretty ordinary jokes and condemnation of a product that no one has actually heard, yeah? I teach my students that condemnation prior to investigation keeps us in ignorance. I know nothing about this spinner but it has received positive reviews - from people that have tried it - everywhere except here, where it seems no one has actually heard it. Even though this is my first post, this 'pile on' seems a little strange to me.

Expensive spinners are largely jewelery, are never as good as a standalone DAC, and are many many times more expensive than DACs that are many many times better in every measurable way.

Has nothing to do with this specific spinner, that's just a fact for the market segment as a whole.

 

[SIY]

With all due respect, I have just slogged through 4 pages of pretty ordinary jokes and condemnation of a product that no one has actually heard, yeah? I teach my students that condemnation prior to investigation keeps us in ignorance. I know nothing about this spinner but it has received positive reviews - from people that have tried it - everywhere except here, where it seems no one has actually heard it. Even though this is my first post, this 'pile on' seems a little strange to me.

Well, perhaps the level of understanding of the technology might be better here? If you claimed that a different hard disk would make e-books have more interesting plots, I don't think anyone would waste time investigating. This is no different. Since you like aphorisms, "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Your students might benefit from understanding that.

 

[Blumlein 88]

With all due respect, I have just slogged through 4 pages of pretty ordinary jokes and condemnation of a product that no one has actually heard, yeah? I teach my students that condemnation prior to investigation keeps us in ignorance. I know nothing about this spinner but it has received positive reviews - from people that have tried it - everywhere except here, where it seems no one has actually heard it. Even though this is my first post, this 'pile on' seems a little strange to me.

Most of the claims made are impossible due to physics and design of the CD medium. So yes it gets dismissed. If it in fact works very nicely the ad has straight up lied to you hoping you don't know any better.

 

[ahofer]

With all due respect, I have just slogged through 4 pages of pretty ordinary jokes and condemnation of a product that no one has actually heard, yeah? I teach my students that condemnation prior to investigation keeps us in ignorance. I know nothing about this spinner but it has received positive reviews - from people that have tried it - everywhere except here, where it seems no one has actually heard it. Even though this is my first post, this 'pile on' seems a little strange to me.

Ever notice that uncontrolled listening and uniformly positive reviews are the rule in the audio press? Ever wonder why?

 

[billyjoebob]

Well, perhaps the level of understanding of the technology might be better here? If you claimed that a different hard disk would make e-books have more interesting plots, , I don't think anyone would waste time investigating

So where did Project state that their new cd player can make Mariah Carey listenable?
That is quite a reach there!!!

My apologies to any Mariah Carey fans i have insulted.

 

[Sal1950]

They got the nerve to call that thing a "top loader", and from a big turntable company to boot???
Don't they listen to the vinyl guys talking about why they love their turntables?
They want to play with the discs, setting then in place, loading the "record weight", then getting to watch it spin.
Wouldn't it be kool if they could even set the laser arm in place?
It's all part of the attraction of vinyl they tell me.
Now something like these are top loaders,

 

[Blumlein 88]

So where did Project state that their new cd player can make Mariah Carey listenable?
That is quite a reach there!!!

My apologies to any Mariah Carey fans i have insulted.

Mariah Carey sounds fantastic. In your case you apparently have been listening with devices that only get maybe some of the bits, a bit over half of them. No wonder you weren't favorably impressed. Now if you hear the full Carey with all the bits with a Project you'll know what you were missing?

T>I>C

 

[Blumlein 88]

I always thought you could sell the idea of holding the disc still and damped. Then spin the laser around it. No doubt an expensive approach. Even pinged a CD with the edges free? They ring at something like 3 khz. Plenty of marketing spiel could be generated about the ill effects of that.

 

[Sal1950]

I always thought you could sell the idea of holding the disc still and damped. Then spin the laser around it. No doubt an expensive approach. Even pinged a CD with the edges free? They ring at something like 3 khz. Plenty of marketing spiel could be generated about the ill effects of that.

I like it!
Maybe it could be done with a spinning mirror under the disc and the laser reading the mirror.
D, maybe we could start a "go fund me" account to develop this thing?

 

[Rob from Sydney]

Well, perhaps the level of understanding of the technology might be better here? If you claimed that a different hard disk would make e-books have more interesting plots, I don't think anyone would waste time investigating. This is no different. Since you like aphorisms, "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Your students might benefit from understanding that.

I stated nothing about the understanding of technology here. Your ego is both manifest and unbecoming. Your e-book comparison is also apples and oranges as your analogy draws on a subjective conclusion. No, I don’t ‘like’ aphorisms per se - it was appropriate. I didn’t post to pick a fight, I have been a professional Stand Up Comic for 40 years that raises money for sick children with Tuberous Sclerosis like my niece. I repeat - it is ludicrous to criticise anything you haven’t experienced. This site is called Audio Science REVIEW.
I have no idea why you have such animosity, perhaps big fish in a small pond syndrome.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I stated nothing about the understanding of technology here. Your ego is both manifest and unbecoming. Your e-book comparison is also apples and oranges as your analogy draws on a subjective conclusion. No, I don’t ‘like’ aphorisms per se - it was appropriate. I didn’t post to pick a fight, I have been a professional Stand Up Comic for 40 years that raises money for sick children with Tuberous Sclerosis like my niece. I repeat - it is ludicrous to criticise anything you haven’t experienced. This site is called Audio Science REVIEW.
I have no idea why you have such animosity, perhaps big fish in a small pond syndrome.

Would you consider it ludicrous if someone made the claim you can jump off a 10 story building and not worry about getting hurt? Do we need to experience that one for ourselves? Some of the claims by Project in their ad are worse than this. Keep an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out.
If you don't trust us, would you like for one or some of us to explain to you why we don't need to try it out to have an opinion about the claims? Then you can reason it out for yourself and understand.

 

[solderdude]

I always thought you could sell the idea of holding the disc still and damped. Then spin the laser around it. No doubt an expensive approach. Even pinged a CD with the edges free? They ring at something like 3 khz. Plenty of marketing spiel could be generated about the ill effects of that.

like this ?

It would have to be really small and drive really fast though.

 

[Blumlein 88]

like this ?

It would have to be really small and drive really fast though.

Are you sending yours into Amir for testing?

 

[solderdude]

I have been a professional Stand Up Comic for 40 years

Let's humor the comedian.

Below a quote from marketing material from Project:

The mechanics in many drives struggle to correctly read CDs and rely on audio interpolation to make it work, that often has a negativ impacting on the sound quality.

Read up on CD encoding (Eight to Fourteen Modulation, CIRC, tracking, focusing, C1, C2, and CU errors and their correction).
Then actually use a CD analyzer (costs of a small car) and see how many C1 and C2 errors occur and how many CU errors occur during playback using a functional (not defective) CDP and using not severely damaged scratched CDs. I have in my repair period.

Let me assure you C1 errors are constantly there and are fully correctable. C2 errors are far less common and are mostly also fully correctable or accurately interpolate-able.
Only when CU errors occur (unrecoverable errors) then samples are lost BUT it is known samples are lost.
How the player handles this (sample hold, interpolation or mute) depends.
It is what Project alludes to.

Focusing and tracking is mechanical (beam following the bread crumb trail on the disc) and is not the same as digital error correction.
The project is nicely built and the chassis has better build quality. That does not mean the read eye pattern is 'better' also.

Let me guarantee you that CD's handled with some basic care (so not terribly scratched or with 'holes' in the reflective layer) and with normal functionality do not ever have any CU errors so all bits are always recovered perfectly and timely.

You would have to understand that unlike vinyl playback is not an 'instant and direct data stream sent to a DAC' but all read data is demodulated, re-clocked de-interleaved, error checked (and corrected) and more processing is done (including digital filtering) before it is sent to a DAC.

So no matter how loud they scream what is claimed is nonsense and when it happens it results in 'ticks' or unwanted noises.

Reading CD's (ripping) via a computer is done differently (buffered and re-read at much higher speed).
Some things in life don't need to be experienced they can be reasoned and measured. Certainly in the digital world.
As a comedian you should know how you can manipulate people into going along and convincing people about things that may not be entirely true. Same here... marketing talk. People want (need) to believe. When they do the magic happens but may not come from where the think it comes from.

 

[voodooless]

Your e-book comparison is also apples and oranges as your analogy draws on a subjective conclusion.

So? That is precisely the whole point, and coincidentally a subjective conclusion is exactly what you were asking for: why don’t you guys listen to the damn thing?

As said before: you don’t need to stick you hand in the fire to know that it will hurt. You just know it will. Did you actually have to put your hand into the fire to gain this knowledge? This has everything to do with understanding the subject matter at hand.

Why don’t you just ignore the fun and banter and address the technical points that have been brought up. There are plenty to be found. Then we can have a discussion.