Zensō
Major Contributor
Ah, OK. Well, there’s a lot to be learned here if you’re open to it. If not, you may find more enjoyment on one of the more subjectivist oriented forums.
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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?
- Thread starter Willhelm_Scream
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Sure if you are MIT and make a design with inductive reactance and capacitive reactance in the signal path that is of a value that affects the audio frequency range. For regular wire without circuitry in the path they won't sound different to the human ear. Near 100% of all this malarkey about the frequency response of speaker wires is related to frequencies in the radio frequency range. We don't hear RF we hear audio range of maybe 20Hz to 20kHz if one is that lucky to hear that high.
Someone indicated my listening environment during my cable test was compromised, therefore the test was compromised. As well as the test subject being compromised, the test giver being compromised, etc. And then going through the whole "you need to have everything level matched before you can give any opinion on differences in sound" lends itself to a more controlled, laboratory-ish testing environment on top of everything else mentioned.
Not to mention, if I recorded a test, people would say it wasn't a controlled environment and that video could be faked, etc.
Back to the topic at hand originally:
In real world conditions (ie, Plug and Play), the Zen One Signature has the most laid back, warm and large soundstage. The Zen Stream is the middle tier of soundstage and is more neutral. The Blue V2 is the most forward, in your face and has the most "exciting" sound signature.
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Emphasis on the REALLLLLY different design. If you have a very impedance-varying amp and your wire is so exotic that it virtually becomes an inline filter, you can get some noticeable variations in FR. This used to be a bit more common with very sensitive tube amps decades ago. These days it's unbelievably rare.
Everyone asking you "did you do level matching, DBT, etc"... I don't think anyone really expects you to do that, hardly anyone here ever does that. The point is, when people actually DO tests like that honestly, never once have they come away with a real change in sound from wires under normal conditions.
There's also the fact that any time wires are measured, there's nothing (and I mean absolutely nothing) in the measurements to suggest you would hear a difference.
Lastly, I would just point out that if speaker wires had a real capability of influencing sound, so would basically any wire in a studio or stage setting. However, in practice, studios might use nice-ish wire, but they don't offer a selection of boutique wires to dial in the sound. The main thing in pro audio is to make sure your cable is properly spec'd for long runs, if you have them.
I studied music technology in college... we got into the fundamentals of sound enough to set someone on a path of being a recording or mixing professional. Not once was cable referenced as a possible means of altering the sound.
I used to read Sound on Sound and Electronic Musician pretty regularly (I even got an article published in the latter once)... never once did they review a cable for its effect on the sound.
And, let me be clear, if cables had a nice (or really any interesting) effect on the sound, you can believe that producers would be all over it. They'd be posting samples of "Audioquest 100x loopback sound" and all that. It would be a really simple studio trick to do. I've never seen anything of the sort.
Bottom line, you heard what you heard ... there is zero reason to believe cables materially affect sound quality, outside of the anecdotal reports of audiophiles.
I'm pretty sure you already asked that question and I already answered it. Did you not read my reply?
As for amps, it's a little more complex. Do ALL sound alike? No. I'm sure there are some with audible distortion, noise, or colorations due to high output impedance. But most amps when operating within their capabilities do. Understand that their capabilities do vary widely, and high power into low impedance loads (or highly capacitive/inductive loads) can easily put many amplifiers *out* of their comfort range.
I'm happy to try it for my own personal experimentation. I don't expect any results to flip any switches here due to compromised sighted tests being done.
If anyone would like to give me a guide to the best way to level match 2 DACs on a PC/software, I'd be glad to have it and try it. I'd be level matching the iFi Zen One Signature and the Blue V2.
They say it's Double Blind Test, but DBT is actually short for Double pain in the ButT... so I don't necessarily think it's worth the effort. But I think we'd all salute you for doing a serious attempt at it. Most people do not come here, get dogpiled by the nerds, and then actually put their money where their mouth is.
I once did a DBT for whiskey (nobody involved knew what was what until after the results were in) and it was actually pretty enlightening. Turns out I don't hate Maker's Mark as long as it's neat. But then again, there's no scientific reason to think all whiskey tastes the same... but we better double check to be sure.
As for level matching, I have more bad news. A lot of supposed sound quality differences are actually just slight differences in volume. This is not surprising due to the loudness effect. But it means you have to be very precise in level matching... as I understand it, no more than +/- 0.1dBV at the output terminals is considered "legit". (one of the engineers can correct me on that value if it's off.) So you need a decent multimeter for that part.
So you want to use the PC as a audio/sine wave source then through the DAC, amp and to speakers or headphones?
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Send a test tone, maybe 440 hz (-20 db to be safe), and measure voltage with a multimeter at the speaker terminals. Do this for one DAC already set for your normal listening volume. Then play the same thru the 2nd DAC and adjust volume in software until you match the voltage of the first DAC within 1%. That should be sufficient level matching. Listen to each DAC as needed or desired.
Maybe some more specific instructions are possible if you tell us what your preferred listening software is.
Sure? I have no interest in buying anything extra for this test. If I can do it through software on my PC, i'd run it through PC > software > DAC > amp > speakers/headphones. I believe I have a multimeter lying around I can grab. I usually use Musicbee but I use Spotify/Tidal and also I do have JRiver.
I just double checked. The V2 and the Zen One have the exact same voltages. 2v for the RCA and 4v for the Balanced.
When you say you double checked, do you mean you simply read their specs? 2V (RMS) is a not-standard but very common max output level for RCA outputs on a DAC.
But any specs should include tolerance, right? Like 2V RMS +/- 5% Or 2V RMS +/- 10%.
So they both say 2V but one might be 1.8V RMS and the other might be 2.16V RMS, for example. That's why you can't just compare without making sure the levels are closer. And to make sure, you have to measure.
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Yeah for instance two of the Zen DACs measured by Amir had 2.18 and 2.19 volts out. Enough to equal about 3/4 of a db vs 2.0 volts. Enough to probably sound the same volume and yet enough to alter results compared to another DAC that really was 2.0 volts. Too easy to check your units and confirm. BTW, if you use a -20 dbFS signal, it is 1/10th the voltage of the 0 dbFS signal.
@all24bits this is a nice sine wave generator.
I applaud myself for not joining this discussion and watching the usual polarized show... :-D The answer is that anything in DACs and amps of course can sound different if
* incompetently designed
* set up differently or wrongly
* incompetently compared
* fraught with expectation bias
* wrongly matched
With competent and well-measuring gear (which this very website helps one establish), you'll be hard pressed to hear much of a difference that displeases you other than speaker choice and match, provided accuracy is your goal.
But if one enjoys the myriad of possible distortions and coloration that some gear provides, hey, the sky is the limit and there are plenty of options that cater to such audiophiles, and we wish them happy endless "comparisons"....
* incompetently designed
* set up differently or wrongly
* incompetently compared
* fraught with expectation bias
* wrongly matched
With competent and well-measuring gear (which this very website helps one establish), you'll be hard pressed to hear much of a difference that displeases you other than speaker choice and match, provided accuracy is your goal.
But if one enjoys the myriad of possible distortions and coloration that some gear provides, hey, the sky is the limit and there are plenty of options that cater to such audiophiles, and we wish them happy endless "comparisons"....
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Galliardist
Major Contributor
Say no more…
coming to 300 pages lol
i think this question was answered inadvertently by the AKM fire
there's quite a few dacs that are produced in two product versions with the ESS vs. AKM chips
the SMSL D400EX/ES is one. The RME is another. There's actually quite a few if people wanted to dig.
And funnily there is tests that shows that they arent that far apart and they sonically sound the same.
To me it then comes down to preferences of what people like... or THINK they like... I mean I'm not immune to that... eg., I would imagine if you bought a D400EX and someone swapped it out for a D400ES while you were gone you could probably not tell a difference.
i think this question was answered inadvertently by the AKM fire
there's quite a few dacs that are produced in two product versions with the ESS vs. AKM chips
the SMSL D400EX/ES is one. The RME is another. There's actually quite a few if people wanted to dig.
And funnily there is tests that shows that they arent that far apart and they sonically sound the same.
To me it then comes down to preferences of what people like... or THINK they like... I mean I'm not immune to that... eg., I would imagine if you bought a D400EX and someone swapped it out for a D400ES while you were gone you could probably not tell a difference.
fpitas
Master Contributor
You know where you stand listening to test tones. Music is always changing!
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