Sennheiser HD800S Review (Headphone)

[MayaTlab]

Is there a sound stage research from Harman?

Like all tech companies these days, they're probably quite involved in the question of measuring or generating HRTF maps, correlating these maps to anatomical data, designing binaural renderers, etc.

Ex here :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1633898241606713344

 

[IAtaman]

Like all tech companies these days, they're probably quite involved in the question of measuring or generating HRTF maps, correlating these maps to anatomical data, designing binaural renderers, etc.

Ex here :

What a cool device. They are missing an opportunity to put OLED screens all over it and beat Apple to the VR punchline.

On a more serious note, that is Gras Keymar isn't it on the YT video? So the device is not very new I take it. Video date is 2 years ago, so I assume not. Well, I am not aware of any successful JBL gaming headsets so maybe no conclusions yet? Either case I very much doubt Harman will publish that research. Unless someone in RTings.com rates the spatial qualities of their gaming headsets low and the CEO gets pissed off, that is

 

[MayaTlab]

What a cool device. They are missing an opportunity to put OLED screens all over it and beat Apple to the VR punchline.

On a more serious note, that is Gras Keymar isn't it on the YT video? So the device is not very new I take it. Video date is 2 years ago, so I assume not. Well, I am not aware of any successful JBL gaming headsets so maybe no conclusions yet? Either case I very much doubt Harman will publish that research. Unless someone in RTings.com rates the spatial qualities of their gaming headsets low and the CEO gets pissed off, that is

Kemar in the video, 5128 in Sean Olive's post.
Spatial audio / surround sound simulation / object based formats + binaural renderers / etc. are quite a new thing and as far as I'm concerned I have not been fully enthused by what I've experienced so far but some more recent experiences I've had have been increasingly striking to me, and hopefully things will improve from the recording / mixing end to the delivery end.

 

[MacClintock]

You Have it backwards.

According to the Harman research frequency response comes first, other variables are secondary.

Thanks DT

What do I have backwards? It is rather that Sean Olive goes wrong here, he wrote once on twitter: "The only other dimension besides #1 frequency response and #2 distortion/dynamics are #3 spatial.. If you don't get #1 right then #3 won't happen." That is simply not true as spatial effects seem largely INDEPENDENT of frequency response, the best example being the HD 800 (S), as pointed out above.

 

[DualTriode]

Is there a sound stage research from Harman?

In the realm you are speaking of spatial effects or sound state is several steps removed.

First came the standardized speaker listening room with calibrated speaker placement and standardized room reflections. This is all about what is now the spinorama. Spatial effects or sound stage is an integral part. You know close your eyes and imagine being there kind of stuff.

Conceptually headphone research was next. What headphones were preferred as being most like listening to speakers in the ISO standard listening room. This is where the Harman Curve came from. Unfortunately headphone do not have room reflections or spatial effects like the ISO standard listening room. The soundstage is in your head between your ears even with the most expensive audiophile headphones.

Spatial effects research is going on in the artificial worlds of gaming, Artificial reality, Augmented reality, in automobile cabin and hearing-aids.

Harman and many others are using HATS and much lower cost headphones to simulate 3D acoustic space. The secret sauce is computer created delays and attenuating amplitude reflections.

This is about AI generated 3D spatial effect models and human testing.

Every quarter the AES publishes a new journal full of this type of 3D spatial effects type of stuff. The next generations of AR and hearing-aids will be much better.

Close your eyes and imagine being there.

Thanks DT

 

[IAtaman]

In the realm you are speaking of spatial effects or sound state is several steps removed.

First came the standardized speaker listening room with calibrated speaker placement and standardized room reflections. This is all about what is now the spinorama. Spatial effects or sound stage is an integral part. You know close your eyes and imagine being there kind of stuff.

Conceptually headphone research was next. What headphones were preferred as being most like listening to speakers in the ISO standard listening room. This is where the Harman Curve came from. Unfortunately headphone do not have room reflections or spatial effects like the ISO standard listening room. The soundstage is in your head between your ears even with the most expensive audiophile headphones.

Spatial effects research is going on in the artificial worlds of gaming, Artificial reality, Augmented reality, in automobile cabin and hearing-aids.

Harman and many others are using HATS and much lower cost headphones to simulate 3D acoustic space. The secret sauce is computer created delays and attenuating amplitude reflections.

This is about AI generated 3D spatial effect models and human testing.

Every quarter the AES publishes a new journal full of this type of 3D spatial effects type of stuff. The next generations of AR and hearing-aids will be much better.

Close your eyes and imagine being there.

Thanks DT

I think you are confusing correlation of FR with preference with sound stage.

 

[MacClintock]

Kemar in the video, 5128 in Sean Olive's post.
Spatial audio / surround sound simulation / object based formats + binaural renderers / etc. are quite a new thing and as far as I'm concerned I have not been fully enthused by what I've experienced so far but some more recent experiences I've had have been increasingly striking to me, and hopefully things will improve from the recording / mixing end to the delivery end.

Any news of this research in a finished product? I tried spatial audio from Apple (but on a non-Apple IEM) with no positive effect. I also bought a 5.1 and a 7.1 dongle from Aliexpress which just sound wonky. I would be very interested in anything that works. There is also this SX-Fi dongle from Creative, but I haven't heard anything enthusiastic either. So is there anything to recommand (except the over expensive Smyth realizer) ?

​

 

[DualTriode]

I think you are confusing correlation of FR with preference with sound stage.

Please point out what I said that was not correct.

I do not think that you have a grasp on the meaning of the word "correlation".

 

[IAtaman]

Please point out what I said that was not correct.

I do not think that you have a grasp on the meaning of the word "correlation".

Here is an idea, why don't you point me to the Harman research where they conclude frequency response comes first, other variables are secondary and we take it from there.

 

[MayaTlab]

Any news of this research in a finished product? I tried spatial audio from Apple (but on a non-Apple IEM) with no positive effect.

With which content ? Apple Music or films ?
I've personally found most Dolby Atmos content in Apple Music to sound unpleasant, even with Apple's own headphones, and even with the personalised profile. Is it necessarily related to the quality of Apple's renderer per se ? I'm not sure. Perhaps also a combination of generally poor practices from current early attempts at spatially mixing musical content and Apple's insistence on using a different delivery format than Dolby's AC4-IMS and their own renderer, even though until recently it wasn't possible to easily preview the results while mixing (and still isn't outside of Logic Pro apparently ?).

If you have access to Logic Pro you can try to compare Dolby's renderer (generic profile only) with Apple's (either personalised or not) and nearly instantly switch between them during playback.

I guess that other DAWs would have some feature of that kind as well, perhaps with other renderers. What I find quite interesting about using DAWs is that you can manually enter the coordinates for the location of the object, so you can directly assess whether something that you've heard from x direction was actually meant to be there, and compare how different types of tracks / stems are handled by different renderers.

I've found it quite fascinating to see how the two companies seem to have chosen different ways to render spatial audio, maybe even from a purely philosophical / conceptual / cultural standpoint. For example, Dolby and Apple seem to me to have a rather different conception of how a generic renderer should handle the front / back distinction (the difference is quite jarring when you're panning an object front to back or vice-versa overhead).

This is something I only do very infrequently, but do you play video games ? I recall having quite an interesting experience when I played Returnal on PS5.

 

[MacClintock]

With which content ? Apple Music or films ?
I've personally found most Dolby Atmos content in Apple Music to sound unpleasant, even with Apple's own headphones, and even with the personalised profile. Is it necessarily related to the quality of Apple's renderer per se ? I'm not sure. Perhaps also a combination of generally poor practices from current early attempts at spatially mixing musical content and Apple's insistence on using a different delivery format than Dolby's AC4-IMS and their own renderer, even though until recently it wasn't possible to easily preview the results while mixing (and still isn't outside of Logic Pro apparently ?).

If you have access to Logic Pro you can try to compare Dolby's renderer (generic profile only) with Apple's (either personalised or not) and nearly instantly switch between them during playback.

View attachment 290269View attachment 290270

I guess that other DAWs would have some feature of that kind as well, perhaps with other renderers. What I find quite interesting about using DAWs is that you can manually enter the coordinates for the location of the object, so you can directly assess whether something that you've heard from x direction was actually meant to be there, and compare how different types of tracks / stems are handled by different renderers.

I've found it quite fascinating to see how the two companies seem to have chosen different ways to render spatial audio, maybe even from a purely philosophical / conceptual / cultural standpoint. For example, Dolby and Apple seem to me to have a rather different conception of how a generic renderer should handle the front / back distinction (the difference is quite jarring when you're panning an object front to back or vice-versa overhead).

This is something I only do very infrequently, but do you play video games ? I recall having quite an interesting experience when I played Returnal on PS5.

I do not play video games nor do I have a sourround home theater nor do I have Logic Pro. I am mostly interested in having spatial audio for listening to music on a headphone/IEM, but it should really improve the listening experience, being "immersive" and not strange and wonky, which is my experience up to now.

 

[MacClintock]

Here is an idea, why don't you point me to the Harman research where they conclude frequency response comes first, other variables are secondary and we take it from there.

This is exactly the point, which cannot be true. You can EQ the HD 800(S) to whatever frequency response you like and it would still have more "spatial" effects than any other headphone I know, even when choosing an "optimised" frequency response for spatial effects, if such a thing exists.

 

[DualTriode]

Here is an idea, why don't you point me to the Harman research where they conclude frequency response comes first, other variables are secondary and we take it from there.

Here you Go.

https://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20230604/19436.pdf

The meaning of the word "correlation"?

A Statistical Model that Predicts Listeners’ Preference Ratings of Around-Ear and On-Ear Headphones Sean E. Olive, Todd Welti, and Omid Khonsaripour Harman International, 8500 Balboa Blvd., Northridge, CA, 91329 Correspondence should be addressed to Sean Olive ([email protected])

 

[IAtaman]

Here you Go.

https://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20230604/19436.pdf

The article you shared attempts to demonstrate a correlation between FR and preference of headphones as I tried to explain previously, that is, less a headphone's FR deviates from a target curve, the more likely it is to be prefered by listeners. There is not a single reference to "stage", "spatial", "3D", "localization" or "imaging" in the article. I have to ask you to point me to the Harman research where they conclude frequency response comes first, other variables are secondary please otherwise I have no choice but to conclude you are making it up.

The meaning of the word "correlation"?

Why don't you google it while you are googling Harman research articles about sound stage.

 

[Robbo99999]

In the realm you are speaking of spatial effects or sound state is several steps removed.

First came the standardized speaker listening room with calibrated speaker placement and standardized room reflections. This is all about what is now the spinorama. Spatial effects or sound stage is an integral part. You know close your eyes and imagine being there kind of stuff.

Conceptually headphone research was next. What headphones were preferred as being most like listening to speakers in the ISO standard listening room. This is where the Harman Curve came from. Unfortunately headphone do not have room reflections or spatial effects like the ISO standard listening room. The soundstage is in your head between your ears even with the most expensive audiophile headphones.

Spatial effects research is going on in the artificial worlds of gaming, Artificial reality, Augmented reality, in automobile cabin and hearing-aids.

Harman and many others are using HATS and much lower cost headphones to simulate 3D acoustic space. The secret sauce is computer created delays and attenuating amplitude reflections.

This is about AI generated 3D spatial effect models and human testing.

Every quarter the AES publishes a new journal full of this type of 3D spatial effects type of stuff. The next generations of AR and hearing-aids will be much better.

Close your eyes and imagine being there.

Thanks DT

Just to pick on one of your points, the bit I bolded in your post....this is not true, the soundstage is rarely just between my ears and on some tracks there are effects that circle the head and clearly go behind & in front (certainly behind is strong effect), and this I've correlated with the same effect with optimally arranged (equilateral triangle with listening position) speakers. So some of these effects are baked into some music and those same effects can transfer to headphones, so certainly it doesn't have to stay between your ears when listening to 2-channel music & likewise when you listen to 2-channel music on speakers. You do have to have the speakers in an ideal equilateral triangle though (I've tried it & it doesn't work properly when in non-ideal position), and when listening through headphones you have to let your mind be free & attentive (more so than you would with the speakers). One such track is Forgotten Love by Aurora around half way through when her voice seperates from central and then starts panning around; there are other tracks by other artists that also have similar effects........and besides general headphone listening isn't strictly between my ears in my perception anyway (depending on headphone, don't get me started on the HD600, that's the worst from that point of view, that is small).

In terms of gaming, which you mentioned, that surely does work for me - Soundblaster Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound - if you set up the variables right for the Surround variable then it really does deliver front & back experiences in a 3D gaming world - hence a full 360 degree arc around you.

 

[Robbo99999]

Any news of this research in a finished product? I tried spatial audio from Apple (but on a non-Apple IEM) with no positive effect. I also bought a 5.1 and a 7.1 dongle from Aliexpress which just sound wonky. I would be very interested in anything that works. There is also this SX-Fi dongle from Creative, but I haven't heard anything enthusiastic either. So is there anything to recommand (except the over expensive Smyth realizer) ?

​

If you're a gamer, I recommend the SoundblasterX G6 DAC/amp (or other products from Creative) if you want to do Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound gaming - but I'd forget about it in terms of music, in terms of don't use the Surround Sound option for music, but instead use the Surround Sound option for gaming (& movies). It's a great measuring DAC for music too, but you wouldn't put it in Virtual Surround Sound mode for that. My & other peoples thoughts & experiences on Virtual Surround Sound here:

Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in Headphones

Hi, I thought I'd start this thread as a gaming virtual 7.1 surround sound enthusiast in headphones. We can let this thread develop into whatever we like on the topic of Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in headphones, and perhaps I'll continue to edit this first post with links to useful...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MacClintock]

If you're a gamer, I recommend the SoundblasterX G6 DAC/amp (or other products from Creative) if you want to do Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound gaming - but I'd forget about it in terms of music, in terms of don't use the Surround Sound option for music, but instead use the Surround Sound option for gaming (& movies). It's a great measuring DAC for music too, but you wouldn't put it in Virtual Surround Sound mode for that. My & other peoples thoughts & experiences on Virtual Surround Sound here:

Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in Headphones

Hi, I thought I'd start this thread as a gaming virtual 7.1 surround sound enthusiast in headphones. We can let this thread develop into whatever we like on the topic of Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in headphones, and perhaps I'll continue to edit this first post with links to useful...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I am not into gaming, just listening to music, so will it work for this aim?

 

[GaryH]

This is exactly the point, which cannot be true. You can EQ the HD 800(S) to whatever frequency response you like and it would still have more "spatial" effects than any other headphone I know, even when choosing an "optimised" frequency response for spatial effects, if such a thing exists.

Unless you've actually tested this (blind), no definitive conclusions can be drawn.

What do I have backwards? It is rather that Sean Olive goes wrong here, he wrote once on twitter: "The only other dimension besides #1 frequency response and #2 distortion/dynamics are #3 spatial.. If you don't get #1 right then #3 won't happen." That is simply not true as spatial effects seem largely INDEPENDENT of frequency response, the best example being the HD 800 (S), as pointed out above.

He's talking about frequency response at your eardrum. The acoustic interaction of your specific pinnae and the HD800, which completely encircles them unimpeded and so maximises this interaction, is likely what contributes to a frequency response at your eardrum that maximises perceived spatial effects, so the two are not independent of each other.

 

[MacClintock]

Here you Go.

https://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20230604/19436.pdf

The meaning of the word "correlation"?

A Statistical Model that Predicts Listeners’ Preference Ratings of Around-Ear and On-Ear Headphones Sean E. Olive, Todd Welti, and Omid Khonsaripour Harman International, 8500 Balboa Blvd., Northridge, CA, 91329 Correspondence should be addressed to Sean Olive ([email protected])

That is really one of the most off-topic and evading the question answers I have seen in a long time.

 

[DualTriode]

There is not a single reference to "stage", "spatial", "3D", "localization" or "imaging" in the article. I have to ask you to point me to the Harman research where they conclude frequency response comes first, other variables are secondary please otherwise I have no choice but to conclude you are making it up.


Why don't you google it while you are googling Harman research articles about sound stage.

No I did not google the AES paper. I am an AES member, the paper is in a file on my desk.
I know the meaning of "correlation", I am ready to give the exam when you complete the exercise.

FR has the strongest correlation to preference, so much so, as you pointed out, spatial effects were without mention in the Harman paper. As in, not enough value to mention.

So some of these effects are baked into some music and those same effects can transfer to headphones, so certainly it doesn't have to stay between your ears when listening to 2-channel music & likewise when you listen to 2-channel music on speakers. You do have to have the speakers in an ideal equilateral triangle though (I've tried it & it doesn't work properly when in non-ideal position), and when listening through headphones you have to let your mind be free & attentive (more so than you would with the speakers). One such track is Forgotten Love by Aurora around half way through when her voice seperates from central and then starts panning around; there are other tracks by other artists that also have similar effects........and besides general headphone listening isn't strictly between my ears in my perception anyway (depending on headphone, don't get me started on the HD600, that's the worst from that point of view, that is small).

In terms of gaming, which you mentioned, that surely does work for me - Soundblaster Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound - if you set up the variables right for the Surround variable then it really does deliver front & back experiences in a 3D gaming world - hence a full 360 degree arc around you.

I do agree that some of the effects are baked into the recording. (Binaural recording by, Amber Rubarth, "Sessions from the 17th Ward")

Some recordings are Binaural. Some live recordings have clues to the venue in the recording. These are the exception. Stereo panning is a gimmick and hardly in the range of headphone spatial effect. These are the exception not the rule

All of the in room effects as you see in a speaker spinorama are completely absent. Sorry, all of the spatial effect is between your ears if you are using headphones, even if they are the most expensive audiophile headphones that money can buy.

Thanks DT