Sennheiser HD600 Review (Headphone)

[xarkkon]

For the last 6+ pages you have taken sole target at my comments and ignored everyone else. Your assessment was challenged and proven wrong, objectively, with multiple measurements and references without any address from you. You are now cherry-picking the guy trying to keep your premature conclusions accountable.
I hope you don't fancy yourself a purveyor of the scientific method, because your grasp of the concept of peer review is not that great.

The technical measurements are useful, but as I mentioned before the personal impressions are lackluster and prone to bias. Everyone would do best to ignore the latter.
The value of this site is that it allows individuals like Sean Olive, Solderdude, Crinacle etc. to congregate.

while you're right in that the measurements do differ slightly resulting in what is likely an audible difference, your multiple posts seem pretty dead set on trying to convince amir and everyone else that what he heard was wrong whether it be due to his sets, pads, or his hearing or bias.

we weren't at his set and didn't hear what he heard.

maybe he did make a mistake as you claim. he's after-all human, with fallible memories.
maybe he really heard 2 identical sets as he claims. the measurements do point to a slight enough difference that externalities (like pads) could have resulted in 2 nearly-identical experiences.
i've auditioned both and can see either outcome being a distinct possibility.

i doubt any reviewer is going to change the memory of their experience based on what we're saying. let's just take his inputs for what it is, a person describing his experience, with the full trappings and constraints that all reviews come with.

mind you, i've raised objections to his reviews before on the burchardt s400 where he poo-pooed it despite good objective measurements. while he did make mention of it in the review after, he stood by his own subjective review, which is absolutely fair

 

[bobbooo]

I think the HD6XX is similar to the HD650. I listened to the HD6xx vs the HD600 and the differences were pretty obvious. (But it wasn't a blind test of course).

The HD6XX and HD650 are exactly the same apart from the paint job.

 

[amirm]

For the last 6+ pages you have taken sole target at my comments and ignored everyone else. Your assessment was challenged and proven wrong, objectively, with multiple measurements and references without any address from you. You are now cherry-picking the guy trying to keep your premature conclusions accountable.

You have dominated this thread with your posts on the same topic over and over again. I just counted and you have 23 posts in this thread on the same topic. Yet you expect no one to challenge you lest that make you feel picked on? If you want that, don't make silly statements on what the general headphone community does or thinks. As I said, they are not here, nor care about what either one of us has to say. Don't appeal to them and think a debating tactic like that works. It doesn't.

I hope you don't fancy yourself a purveyor of the scientific method, because your grasp of the concept of peer review is not that great.

You are not my peer. Neither is anyone else doing "peer review" testing other headphones using other fixtures and methodologies. You don't know what the term means so don't throw it around.

You clearly have a vested interest in this outcome that goes beyond any logic. You are obsessed with the topic. Despite being allowed to say what you want over, and over again, you keep going. I am going to ask you to be professional in your next post or I will show you the door.

 

[bobbooo]

Thank F***ing goodness, someone whose favorite seasoning isn't salt.

As for that, thank you for the info! That is all extremely useful. I will look into those options for my own EQ journey.

As for my statement, I really meant listeners on iPhones/Galaxy phones where getting the HD600's subbass up to Harman-level subbass would result in distortion without amplification. Things like requiring an amplifier, using an EQ app etc. are inconvenient. Not to mention that on the iPhone, you would need to forgo using Apple Music to instead play through the EQ app.

That's where the tiny but powerful Qudelix 5K with its built-in hardware parametric equalizer comes in Once set-up it's literally plug and play (or even minus the plug if using Bluetooth!), and any settings are easily controllable via the brilliant app. It really is a game-changer, with huge potential sound quality benefits for very little added inconvenience.

The majority of headphone users (I don't have statistics for this, but it's so acknowledged it may as well be common sense) listen through their phones. That may not overlap very much with the niche consumer that reads ASR reviews, but I would bet it's still a majority even in this environment.

Agreed, I think some people on here often forget how much of a niche within a niche they're in. The majority of users power their headphones from their phones, the (mostly perfectly good) audio capabilities of which are unjustifiably dismissed by audiophiles.

 

[Aperiodic]

HD580 'Jubilee'got renamed HD600.
The 600 and 650 did measure somewhat differently in Tyll Herttsen's setup at the late lamented Innerfidelity. Although you can't overlay the graphs for comparison like you could on Innerfidelity, his measurements are still available on Stereophile:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650-measurements
Click on the tthumbnails to enlarge. Tyll's results on the 600 vs 650 showed a more prominent midbass hump and more rolloff of the highs in the 650, leading to the endless 'veil' debate.

solderdude, I wonder if the 'quieter' CSD for the 650 could have anything to do with the mounting plate the drivers sit in being carbon fiber (not plastic) in the 650. I doubt that feature survived the beancounters at Drop with their 6xx.

 

[amirm]

That's fine, but the stock sound of the headphone is brushed aside in favor of that ideal. As such, reviews here are only really useful for a small niche.

This is nonsense. Every review has measurements of the "stock" headphone. I also listen to each headphone without EQ first and assess its fidelity. Equalization is then used to a) confirm measurement accuracy and b) to provide a better experience. In many case I give dual rating for a headphone with and without EQ. That way people can understand where they they stand with and without EQ.

EQ is mandatory for best sound with both speaker listening and headphone listening. It is my goal to advance its adoption and show the incredible value it brings. A value that cannot be disputed (e.g. two amps with different distortion). You are welcome to ignore that but you don't get to fight it as if there is some merit in it. There is none.

You talk about science but forget that much of Harman research into headphones was performed by taking one headphone and equalizing it to the frequency response of many others. In doing so, they managed to make that one headphone sound anywhere from terrible to superb. Such is the role of EQ. So don't go making debating arguments here against EQ. It goes the very thing we stand for here. Go say it elsewhere if you want to but here, you are going to get a HUGE pushback from me.

 

[markanini]

maybe he did make a mistake as you claim. he's after-all human, with fallible memories.

I'll give Amir more credit, the HD600 and HD650 he measured are very very close. That's not to say that all HD600 and HD650 sound identical, we have evidence that says otherwise. I haven't seen anyone enteraining the idea of Amir making a misstake so far, you're the first person to do that.

 

[ultralite2021]

I knew that Amir's conclusions were flawed due to measurements I has seen in the wild and the plethora of user experiences saying otherwise. I was not challenging Amir as much as Amir was challenging heavily established knowledge, and as such I put it under adequate scrutiny in pursuit of the truth. Nothing was personally motivated, since I gain nothing whether they sound the same or not. My only motivation was objectivity.

In addition to that, Amir drew a premature conclusion that was influencing discussion early in this thread that declared the HD600/650 difference as a myth. That's a big claim, with the ability to throw the reliability of multiple people and companies into doubt.
Even if he won't, it must be acknowledged that Amir's impressions have a heft of influence. If they're wrong, it either throws his credibility into strong doubt or the credibility of innocent parties such as Sennheiser.


That does not strike me as "fair" on a forum purporting to be in the pursuit of science.
Any scientific assessment should be free of personal bias, and free of favoring one's own conclusions in the face of conflicting evidence. If Amir is "sticking to his guns" in the face of opposing proof, that's not productive, that's subversion. It's also not a very good look on a site with the word "science" front-and-center.

Amir's measurements were correct. His personal assessment in isolation was correct, since those units most likely sounded the same for whatever reason. His assessment in the wider environment, which concerns all HD600/650s out in the wild and those that the consumer is most likely to buy, was incorrect.
He is supposing (with his suggestion that no meaningful difference exists in any copy) that his measurements reflect the wider environment, rather than being an extreme outlier case due to his specific circumstance. That is also wrong.

This sums it up for me. These headphones are so widely objectively tested and subjectively tested that Amir should have figured something was wrong as his findings were so at odds with everyone elses findings.
It just show lack of care in the review that he doesnt even check what other testers and reviewers find. He couldnt possibly be wrong though.

 

[ultralite2021]

You have dominated this thread with your posts on the same topic over and over again. I just counted and you have 23 posts in this thread on the same topic. Yet you expect no one to challenge you lest that make you feel picked on?

If you want that, don't make silly statements on what the general headphone community does or thinks. As I said, they are not here, nor care about what either one of us has to say. Don't appeal to them and think a debating tactic like that works. It doesn't.


You are not my peer. Neither is anyone else doing "peer review" testing other headphones using other fixtures and methodologies. You don't know what the term means so don't throw it around.

You clearly have a vested interest in this outcome that goes beyond any logic. You are obsessed with the topic. Despite being allowed to say what you want over, and over again, you keep going. I am going to ask you to be professional in your next post or I will show you the door.

Its clear the general headphone community doesnt think they sound the same.
You should care what other people say, especially whern you are so clearly wrong.

 

[xarkkon]

I'll give Amir more credit, the HD600 and HD650 he measured are very very close. That's not to say that all HD600 and HD650 sound identical, we have evidence that says otherwise. I haven't seen anyone enteraining the idea of Amir making a misstake so far, you're the first person to do that.

I knew that Amir's conclusions were flawed

Amir drew a premature conclusion that was influencing discussion early in this thread

Even if he won't, it must be acknowledged that Amir's impressions have a heft of influence. If they're wrong, it either throws his credibility into strong doubt or the credibility of innocent parties such as Sennheiser.

Erm.... this was what I was addressing, and all from a single post out of many in this thread. I'm not the one saying he made a mistake, I'm just saying there's no way anyone of us will know what he did or did not hear and that we shouldn't give him grief for his subjective take. If you read my entire post instead of just that one line, you'll see that quite clearly I think.

That does not strike me as "fair" on a forum purporting to be in the pursuit of science.

To my understanding, the science part is the measurements, which we all agree with. The subjective part is just that, subjective. No science there at all. He adds that in as people have been lambasting him for not listening. And now that he listens, he's lambasted for having a subjective view not in line with others' experiences. Seems like a cannot-win position to me.

 

[ultralite2021]

You clearly have a vested interest in this outcome that goes beyond any logic. You are obsessed with the topic. Despite being allowed to say what you want over, and over again, you keep going. I am going to ask you to be professional in your next post or I will show you the door.

Vested interest? Seem just like valid criticism to me. So you cant take criticism. You ban people when they disagree.

 

[markanini]

Seems like a cannot-win position to me.

It's a long thread, If you followed it from the start you would know that no one criticized Amirs subjective evaluation. The only point of disagreement was the conlusion that all HD600 and HD650 sound alike. Let's not invent arguments based on things that didn't take place.

 

[ultralite2021]

You’ve honestly got me gobsmacked. That comes across as so personal and egregious that I can't rightly believe I incurred it.

I’m here to be objective about headphones like anyone else. I did not expect to be leered over for disagreeing with you based on evidence that others provided. I may not be your "peer" but I dare you to level that at anyone that provided measurements in this thread.
I have been as impartial as I can be throughout. I am participating in your forum and being called “obsessive” for it. I don’t know what anyone is meant to do in that circumstance.

I’ll leave you this:
Prove me wrong. Prove Crinacle, Solderdude, and everyone else here wrong. Come up with the evidence that the HD600 and HD650 sound meaningfully the same, with measurements and a double-blind test. Go to the extent that others here have gone to, and whose work you’re throwing to the side in favor of your own conclusion.

OR acknowledge that your test pair sounds the same but they do not reflect the differences in the wider landscape, as shown by the other tests in this thread.
Do you agree with the above? That is literally all I have been trying to say here.


That's exactly what I'm getting at here. No-one is arguing that Amir's measurements are wrong, his pair most likely sounds identical. They just do not reflect the wider environment very well and need to be acknowledged as such.


@amirm , I strongly recommend that you walk away and cool off. I'm not trying to discredit or anger you here, I am simply trying to get down to facts. I'm sorry that you felt attacked by my insistence and I will take note of it for the future.

Amirs attack was rude and wrong. How many other tests are wrong like this one?

 

[amirm]

Vested interest? Seem just like valid criticism to me. So you cant take criticism. You ban people when they disagree.

People disagree with my reviews all the time. State your case and move along. Don't post in pages after pages the same disagreement. The review threads are not debate threads. Go start another thread and disagree all you want. Don't pollute the review threads with the same argument a hundred times.

Turn the topic into a battle and you will get a thread ban (meaning you can post elsewhere but no more here). Keep at it in thread after thread, and you will get banned.

 

[amirm]

I’ll leave you this:
Prove me wrong. Prove Crinacle, Solderdude, and everyone else here wrong.

I can't prove them wrong because I don't have the headphones they tested.

What you can't do is prove me wrong. I have showed you measurements that clearly agree with my listening test results. I also had my son listen to this headphone and he arrived at the same conclusion. This is the data I have, this is the data I published. You have a hypothesis that this is wrong, but I can't run with your hypothesis against my data.

 

[ultralite2021]

People disagree with my reviews all the time. State your case and move along. Don't post in pages after pages the same disagreement. The review threads are not debate threads. Go start another thread and disagree all you want. Don't pollute the review threads with the same argument a hundred times.

Turn the topic into a battle and you will get a thread ban (meaning you can post elsewhere but no more here). Keep at it in thread after thread, and you will get banned.

You have created the battle. You have been rude. No acknoledgement of the fact your test is wrong. You dont take care with your test. everyone knows 600 and 650 do not sound the same but you sit in isolation claiming to be right. You did not research to see if your data representative.

Your only answer is to ban people who disagree with you. Your tests are not trust worthy. Are you going to chabge review conclusion to say your data is not representative?

 

[amirm]

This sums it up for me. These headphones are so widely objectively tested and subjectively tested that Amir should have figured something was wrong as his findings were so at odds with everyone elses findings.

So this is how it works? I am supposed to just rubber stamp other people's measurements when I do my own reviews against my own measurements and listening tests? Talk about abusrd.

Headphone testing is an inexact science. The device simply doesn't yield precision results. Some of you have totally confused yourself on this front, believing small differences to be gospel and repeatable. It isn't the case in my book. You can believe it. I can't after testing some 50 headphones and seeing the high variability.

Besides the testing variability, there is also ton of variability between headphones and even in each cup/driver. You can post a million times how much you trust small measured differences elsewhere and I am still going to tell you that as a matter of process and protocol, I can't go there. If I can get the conclusion of the objective and subjective performance of a headphone right 90%, I could myself super lucky. You all that are aspiring 100% can go elsewhere to get that message. I know what I can do in measuring these devices and listening to them and not going to bend to pleading, insulting, etc. If you don't like this, fine. Don't lecture me about it.

 

[amirm]

You have created the battle. You have been rude. No acknoledgement of the fact your test is wrong.

My test is wrong? How no earth do you know that? Do you have a year 2000 HD-650 that I measured to show that it measures differently? You don't right?

My listening tests agreed with measurements. Two people listened to them and within confines and inaccuracies of headphone listening, we judged them to be same.

You have no case there that my results are wrong. They are what they are.

 

[amirm]

You have created the battle.

So it is clear: battles are NOT allowed in review threads. I won't warn you again.

You can express disagreement, state why and that is fine. Make it a battle and you will get the treatment I stated. Learn from our senior members who disagree professionally and with information, not rants and protests.

 

[ultralite2021]

My test is wrong? How no earth do you know that? Do you have a year 2000 HD-650 that I measured to show that it measures differently? You don't right?

My listening tests agreed with measurements. Two people listened to them and within confines and inaccuracies of headphone listening, we judged them to be same.

You have no case there that my results are wrong. They are what they are.

Your test result not representative of the headphones. Proven by much data shown by others in this thread. Proven by my own experience. Proven by all the listening buy others on the internet. I am not ranting. Your test misleading to readers and unfair to Sennheiser. Please update your test conclusions.