Search for new monitors in small home studio - tried KRK G4 RP5 and Kali IN_5 but not there yet

[EasyC]

Hi,
I've been reading a lot on ASR, learning, not understanding everything (my experience is in lighting) but I have some technical background and have had a lot of conversations with (live) sound guys. I (try to) make music with Logic and really like having good stereo sound at my desk.

Started out with KRK RP G4 2-3 years ago, which I'm in the proces of upgrading. They sound quite ok, but I think I could get better... They measured quite well here on ASR though.

So, first I bought a sub - TS107 from Eve. It's very good with the KRK's. Lots of adjustable settings for filtering. Whole set sounds pretty good with Sonarworks applied. But maybe not the best way to do it - better to first get the speakers and then search for a sub that fits the system I guess... The TS107 is really nice, but I had already 2 or 3 times I didn't get any sound from them. Had to power cycle which solved it. So now I lost confidence in the brand, having also read some disturbing posts about failing Eve units on gear space. The SC205's where on my shortlist so that's a shame..

Anyway, this (one of the better) measurements I got from the KRK's with the 107 at 120Hz in my small (3.5x3.6m) room:

It has been treated a bit and there's some furniture in there, and has a sloping roof on one side, so it's not symmetrical. Between 120-180 there's a room mode I think, ceiling- desk I guess?

I got the Kali IN-5 as a replacement. Been eying the 8030's, but the price and raving reviews of the Kali made me try them first.
But there was bad news again: one of the Kali's had no midrange. Power cycling didn't help, but a good hit on the top revived the driver. Oops.
This was also not very confidence inspiring.
But, it worked although I had to give it a hit now and then. At least I could measure it now and see what all the fuss was about.
They did not blow me away at first. Had to break in my ears I guess, although I've heard here on ASR that good speakers should sound good from the beginning. Nice mids, good bass, treble was a bit lacking I think. Angled them more to my ears. Better, but bass didn't blow me away. It turns out the TS107 are not a good match for the Kali's, they sound much better without it. More spatial. So yesterday I had some good moments with them, reference tracks sounded good, but not the big upgrade I hoped for from the KRK's. Here's a measurement from the Kali's with the sub at 80Hz crossover:

As I said, they sounded better without the sub. Much more space in the music and better balanced.
But broken midrange on arrival and trouble with the 107 made me contact Thomann, and they offered to take back everything so I could choose another set..
Going to take that offer, but what now?

I'm leaning towards Genelec 8030's now, maybe even with the super expensive sub (7050). They are praised a lot, and I think I like their build quality. It get's expensive really quick though.. Been looking at the Dynaudio 9s for sub as well. Goes down to 22Hz (±3dB) which I like. Will the 7050 be better?
Or should I get bigger monitors without a sub? Like something with 7" or 8" woofers although space is very limited.

For monitors I looked at Focal shape 50's and Adam A7V as well. Having a listening test is not really an option as I will buy them online and don't want to 'cheat' a retailer.

Really unsure what to do now. Complete Genelec system will be around €1800 which is really at the top of my budget.

Seeking advice here, but don't want to spend more.
Help would be appreciated.
C.

 

[Zensō]

I’m a happy 8030C owner. I’m in a small room, so I run them without a sub and check bass with calibrated headphones. Used in conjunction with Sonarworks my mixes are translating well. They’re a joy to work with and I doubt you’d be disappointed.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

The kali mid range just sounds like a loose cable, probably something I'd just pop them open and fix but most people wouldn't bother. Hell I had that with a kh120.

I would somewhat tame expectations. A nearfield desk setup in a small room is always going to be a compromise, depending on the desk size you're practically moving the floor up and creating a huge reflection point. I've never been happy with setups that have desks in front of the speakers. I had to make own custom desk that is small enough to not be a problem. The room size is also just going to be a pain to work with.

You appear to be correcting things in an ill advised manner. You are correcting to a flat in room response which generally translates to a pretty bright speaker. Most of the you want to try an achieve something simlar to the harman target that slopes downwards toward the top end. Pay attention to what it's doing too, speaker probably doesn't need that +6db boost at 15khz on the kali. It also doesn't seem like you actually integrated the sub right. You shouldn't have that huge valley at 100hz if you got the sub right. You also generally need to hipass the monitors to get good integration but it's possible without one.

I don't think spending more money on different monitors will fix your problems. I think your room and placement/integration is the problem, just look at the two graphs, very similar below 500hz, because that's where the room takes over. You could grab a genelec system but it's going look the same under 500hz which is likely the region that is leaving you unhappy, and sadly the most difficult to fix in small rooms.

 

[Zensō]

You appear to be correcting things in an ill advised manner. You are correcting to a flat in room response which generally translates to a pretty bright speaker.

Most producers I know are correcting to a flat target in near field, say of less than 1 meter. Of course, at longer listening distances a downward slope is usually preferred.

 

[EasyC]

Thank you for the advice.

@badspeakerdesigner : I know about compromises, you should have seen the graph before I started treating the room...
I also actually like the flat curve, it is, as @acbarn said, for near field and creating music.
About the sub: I've experimented a lot. It's been from 60Hz to 140Hz and in-between at slightly different levels and different places in the room. The monitors are high passed at 80Hz. I've measured the KRK's without a sub as well:

Same valley, although it's worsened by the sub. I guessed therefore it must be a room mode. In all settings I tried with the sub it's there, always at about the same frequency.
Edit: I do see a large Left/Right difference in the 80Hz region which is not there with a sub. The left side has a lot less bass, maybe because of the sloped roof on my right side when I'm in front of the monitors.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

Thank you for the advice.

@badspeakerdesigner : I know about compromises, you should have seen the graph before I started treating the room...
I also actually like the flat curve, it is, as @acbarn said, for near field and creating music.
About the sub: I've experimented a lot. It's been from 60Hz to 140Hz and in-between at slightly different levels and different places in the room. The monitors are high passed at 80Hz. I've measured the KRK's without a sub as well:

View attachment 293226

Same valley, although it's worsened by the sub. I guessed therefore it must be a room mode. In all settings I tried with the sub it's there, always at about the same frequency.
Edit: I do see a large Left/Right difference in the 80Hz region which is not there with a sub. The left side has a lot less bass, maybe because of the sloped roof on my right side when I'm in front of the monitors.

That response is much better for one channel though, perhaps were seeing different things in the graph. I mean yeah, that is just much better, look at your other ones without the sub, if you remove the desk reflections in the ~150hz area, you'd basically have a pretty flat response in the bass and mid bass region. Adding another sub would likely fill in the other channel. What i'm seeing in your graph here is an improvement with the sub.

I make music as well fwiw.

https://soundcloud.com/melohq

 

[Zensō]

Same valley, although it's worsened by the sub. I guessed therefore it must be a room mode. In all settings I tried with the sub it's there, always at about the same frequency.

Yeah, that must be your room. My small room has similar issues. You may be better off going without a sub and using headphones in conjunction with your monitors.

 

[EasyC]

Yeah, that must be your room. My small room has similar issues. You may be better off going without a sub and using headphones in conjunction with your monitors.

True, that works. But for listening I really also like the low end. A lot of modern music uses a lot of sub, which can be really nice. I listen to a lot of different genres, but for this I really dig the speaker 'feel'. I want it all!
I try to keep peaks and valleys below ±6dB, I understood that is still ok with EQ. But the flatter the starting point the better I guess. The KRK's with the sub were quite good.
But I'm definitely not going to buy 2 Genelec or Dynaudio subs, there's a limit to the budget.

A bass trap would not help I guess because it's a dip...

@badspeakerdesigner : nice mellow music!

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

True, that works. But for listening I really also like the low end. A lot of modern music uses a lot of sub, which can be really nice. I listen to a lot of different genres, but for this I really dig the speaker 'feel'. I want it all!
I try to keep peaks and valleys below ±6dB, I understood that is still ok with EQ. But the flatter the starting point the better I guess. The KRK's with the sub were quite good.
But I'm definitely not going to buy 2 Genelec or Dynaudio subs, there's a limit to the budget.

A bass trap would not help I guess because it's a dip...

@badspeakerdesigner : nice mellow music!

I believe that whether dip or peak it doesn't particularly matter, it's a different result of the same phenomenon. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Dip or peak it doesn't matter, as both are caused by basically the same interaction of direct energy hitting you at a different time than the reflected energy, this can result in constructive (boosts) or destructive (nulls) interference. That's what a sub helps, lets you put the bass radiator in a spot where you can minimize the interference patterns. It seemed to take me a lot of time to find the best sub spot though, and eventually I ended up getting another one as I didn't like how having a sub on one side of me sounded. Idk why people say you can't localize them, pretty obvious difference in pressure between my left and right ear with one sub.

 

[DVDdoug]

For music production you don't need "perfect" monitors, and every speaker-monitor is going to sound different anyway.

You just need good monitors with no gross errors (it's hard to avoid errors/problems on the low-frequency end in a "home studio") and then you need to learn (over time) what a good recording sounds like in your studio and how to make good recordings that "translate" well on most other setups.

If you get "better" monitors after learning to make good mixes on what you have, you'll have to start the learning process over again.

 

[Zensō]

True, that works. But for listening I really also like the low end. A lot of modern music uses a lot of sub, which can be really nice. I listen to a lot of different genres, but for this I really dig the speaker 'feel'. I want it all!
@badspeakerdesigner : nice mellow music!

In my opinion, calibrating speakers and headphones for listening enjoyment vs mixing require different approaches. At least in my experience, trying to do both in the same system doesn't work very well. YMMV...

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

In my opinion, calibrating speakers and headphones for listening enjoyment vs mixing require different approaches. At least in my experience, trying to do both in the same system doesn't work very well. YMMV...

I find neutral response with harman similar sloping to be perfect for mixing and for listening.

 

[Zensō]

I find neutral response with harman similar sloping to be perfect for mixing and for listening.

Anecdotally, and in my experience, a Harman-esque slope is not ideal in the near field and can result in bright mixes. That said, we all naturally adapt to whatever monitoring situation we're accustomed to.

 

[thewas]

There is only one Harman target above modal region for loudspeakers and that is flat direct sound which translates to different slopes at the listening position depending on the directivity of the loudspeakers, reflectivity of the room and listening distance. That is why it is better to correct the loudspeakers on that region based on high quality anechoic measurement data. More about this topic from Dr. Toole can be found in the first link of my signature.

 

[EasyC]

There is only one Harman target above modal region for loudspeakers and that is flat direct sound which translates to different slopes at the listening position depending on the directivity of the loudspeakers, reflectivity of the room and listening distance. That is why it is better to correct the loudspeakers on that region based on high quality anechoic measurement data. More about this topic from Dr. Toole can be found in the first link of my signature.

It's complicated stuff.. What I think you and Dr.Toole mean, in layman's terms, is to not EQ my speakers to the room but to the anechoic data? And take the peaks and dips as they come? The region is near field, so direct sound should be louder than early reflections.
So I measure and correct for the MLP in near field to be flat. With EQ, which seems to me is more precise than dipswitches on the speaker. You're saying that's not the way to go?

 

[thewas]

What I think you and Dr.Toole mean, in layman's terms, is to not EQ my speakers to the room but to the anechoic data? And take the peaks and dips as they come?

Exactly, above modal region (so around 200-300 Hz) equalise according to the anechoic data and ignore the peaks and dips you measure at the LP, our hearing system behaves differently than a single non-windowed microphone.

 

[ozzy9832001]

Hi,
I've been reading a lot on ASR, learning, not understanding everything (my experience is in lighting) but I have some technical background and have had a lot of conversations with (live) sound guys. I (try to) make music with Logic and really like having good stereo sound at my desk.

Started out with KRK RP G4 2-3 years ago, which I'm in the proces of upgrading. They sound quite ok, but I think I could get better... They measured quite well here on ASR though.

So, first I bought a sub - TS107 from Eve. It's very good with the KRK's. Lots of adjustable settings for filtering. Whole set sounds pretty good with Sonarworks applied. But maybe not the best way to do it - better to first get the speakers and then search for a sub that fits the system I guess... The TS107 is really nice, but I had already 2 or 3 times I didn't get any sound from them. Had to power cycle which solved it. So now I lost confidence in the brand, having also read some disturbing posts about failing Eve units on gear space. The SC205's where on my shortlist so that's a shame..

Anyway, this (one of the better) measurements I got from the KRK's with the 107 at 120Hz in my small (3.5x3.6m) room:

View attachment 293204

It has been treated a bit and there's some furniture in there, and has a sloping roof on one side, so it's not symmetrical. Between 120-180 there's a room mode I think, ceiling- desk I guess?

I got the Kali IN-5 as a replacement. Been eying the 8030's, but the price and raving reviews of the Kali made me try them first.
But there was bad news again: one of the Kali's had no midrange. Power cycling didn't help, but a good hit on the top revived the driver. Oops.
This was also not very confidence inspiring.
But, it worked although I had to give it a hit now and then. At least I could measure it now and see what all the fuss was about.
They did not blow me away at first. Had to break in my ears I guess, although I've heard here on ASR that good speakers should sound good from the beginning. Nice mids, good bass, treble was a bit lacking I think. Angled them more to my ears. Better, but bass didn't blow me away. It turns out the TS107 are not a good match for the Kali's, they sound much better without it. More spatial. So yesterday I had some good moments with them, reference tracks sounded good, but not the big upgrade I hoped for from the KRK's. Here's a measurement from the Kali's with the sub at 80Hz crossover:




As I said, they sounded better without the sub. Much more space in the music and better balanced.
But broken midrange on arrival and trouble with the 107 made me contact Thomann, and they offered to take back everything so I could choose another set..
Going to take that offer, but what now?

I'm leaning towards Genelec 8030's now, maybe even with the super expensive sub (7050). They are praised a lot, and I think I like their build quality. It get's expensive really quick though.. Been looking at the Dynaudio 9s for sub as well. Goes down to 22Hz (±3dB) which I like. Will the 7050 be better?
Or should I get bigger monitors without a sub? Like something with 7" or 8" woofers although space is very limited.

For monitors I looked at Focal shape 50's and Adam A7V as well. Having a listening test is not really an option as I will buy them online and don't want to 'cheat' a retailer.

Really unsure what to do now. Complete Genelec system will be around €1800 which is really at the top of my budget.

Seeking advice here, but don't want to spend more.
Help would be appreciated.
C.

No matter what speakers you get the room issues will still remain. In a small room like you have, nearfield listening, you'll have some work cut out to really get great, great sound. Just the nature of the beast. There will be a lot of compromise and it will be more difficult to get a flat response. I'd EQ down the peak at about 140hz (I'm assuming you have an 8' ceiling), would also explain the dip at 70hz. You should be able to move listening/speaker position to get out of the dip at 70hz or add a subwoofer to help straighten it out. Can cross over high and it will probably help the entire bass region.

One of the most frustrating part of the whole experience is learning how badly your room is impacting the sound. There are ways to treat it. My room is slightly smaller than yours at 9.5x11.5x8ft.

Combo of positioning and room treatments helps to get things under control.

 

[EasyC]

Well.. I ordered 8030's already, just couldn't ignore all scientific evidence Set them up 30m ago.
No Sonarworks, just the near field/console bridge dip switch (they're on a shelf with my screen) and did the EQ (2500Hz 2dB Q3).
No sub yet also.
Great sound seems pretty close. Like it already. Going to measure but man, these small 'stones' really perform.

 

[EasyC]

If anyone's interested... Got the Genelec 7050 Sub along with the 8030's.
Kali IN-5 are back to Thomann, and so is the Eve sub.
I liked the sound a lot, so for compatibility and also for build quality I got the expensive sub. Build like a tank, just like the 8030's. Everything just works, and the design may be not for everyone but I really like it.
So I did some measuring, both with REW and with Sonarworks. With REW only a sweep from the LP, SW uses 33 points around the LP. Did the crossover dip switch thing.
A lot of listening and comparing, trying to manage room modes... Quite happy now, have it set within sonar works with a dip at 51Hz, SW manages the EQ between 120 and 700, above that just the eq from the anechoic data. Need that eq I think, because of a quite difficult and unflexible (small) room.
Anyway, here's what I'm using now: