Schiit's Jason Stoddard on blind testing

[q3cpma]

"But he sounds so nice and reasonable!"
Argumentum ad temperatum at its finest. Still funny to see so much people fall for it.

 

[MattHooper]

From the article:

"And…here’s the amazing thing: Tyll had a couple of guys who went through and scored wayyyyyyy beyond chance—one identifying 14 out of 15 amps correctly!

Objectivists largely ignored the results, which showed that there were some people who could perceive small audible differences in level-matched blind comparisons, at least with amplifiers.

Go back and read that again. Proof of audible differences. "


^^^^^^
Did this gentleman perhaps fail his statistics course?

I have a group of 50 students and I've given each of them a quarter. I ask them all to flip the quarter five times in a row, while wishing that it land "heads."

Some flip mostly tails, others mostly heads, much in between. But "John" flips five heads in a row!

Conclusion: PROOF of John's ability to control the flip of a coin by wishing!


(I'd like to know how many trials the golden eared participant underwent; was his ability to identify the amp repeatable?)

 

[Victor Martell]

True - the Schiit guys are definitely subjectivists and freely admit it - what I respect is that they are reasonable. Lemme put it this way - measurements aside and whatever the verdict on it, given what Yggy is, with the 8 industrial strength analogue devices chips, I am sure there are "high-end" manufacturers that would sell it to you for $15K or more.

And while they support subjective evaluation, and granted this is not a properly designed experiment, Jason does have a paragraph in there re: his skepticism of people that hear life changing differences when substituting cables... so all in all my guess is that they are ok, in the grand scheme of things.

v

 

[Blumlein 88]

The other thing reading this Schitt article is the description sounds like when they switch they know they are listening to something different. They may not know what A, B, and C on the switch are, but they always know if they are listening to A or B or C. We all know you can repeat listening even to the same device and think you are hearing differences so no surprise over time they might assign a character to one of the unknown choices, and that with enough trials every so often some people pick the same one.

This is a step in the right direction. On occasion when all I've managed are to get people to match levels they either admit no difference or decide instead of night and day we are suddenly down to very tiny near worthless differences. Which matched Stoddard's descriptions.

Obscuring what is A and what is B is another step toward people not hearing differences which don't exist. So it isn't all the way, but a move in a better direction. Such blind listening reviewing would be more accurate and consistent than how current sighted listening is done.

 

[SIY]

Here the man is saying that his cheaper amps are all you need and that is somehow a bad thing? What is it that you want from him?

Honesty and integrity. Like actually doing a true DBT before bloviating with a commercial goal in mind.

This is huckster behavior, there is no nice way to put it.

 

[pkane]

The other thing reading this Schitt article is the description sounds like when they switch they know they are listening to something different. They may not know what A, B, and C on the switch are, but they always know if they are listening to A or B or C. We all know you can repeat listening even to the same device and think you are hearing differences so no surprise over time they might assign a character to one of the unknown choices, and that with enough trials every so often some people pick the same one.

This is a step in the right direction. On occasion when all I've managed are to get people to match levels they either admit no difference or decide instead of night and day we are suddenly down to very tiny near worthless differences. Which matched Stoddard's descriptions.

Obscuring what is A and what is B is another step toward people not hearing differences which don't exist. So it isn't all the way, but a move in a better direction. Such blind listening reviewing would be more accurate and consistent than how current sighted listening is done.

Totally agree. Just like the way that Schiit was forced to use an AP analyzer to measure their products, the admission that proper level-matched blind test is important, and that audio differences are often very minor, is a good first step on the road to recovery. This company may yet have a future! Now if only they'd consider changing their name....

 

[k3nb5t]

This is not a call to civility. He has purposely created a new term "blind listening" that subjectivists can use to say that they don't believe in ABX testing. And then, even though he claims initial testing only shows minor differences, that better amp or DAC is going to sound better to you over time. We could say the same thing about expensive cables, too. Even though an ABX test will show no difference between inexpensive and expensive cables, that expensive cable will sound better to you once you have used it at home.

Way to sell your product with a new snake oil pitch, Jason.

Stoddard's post came across to me as pretty genuine, but I don't fault your skepticism.

Personally, I choose to purchase products from companies that already exhibit technical excellence and scientific rigor in their product development process. Extending my journey metaphor, I prefer purchasing from companies that completed this journey before bringing their product(s) to market, rather than after.

However, this is the current state of affairs in the audio industry... Schiit has demonstrated a willingness to change their products and I think Stoddard is demonstrating a willingness to change his perspective. Both of those seem like good things to me.

 

[Blumlein 88]

..... This company may yet have a future! Now if only they'd consider changing their name....

Yes, I detest the name. It might have been something kind of funny between ages 11.5 and 12 years old to me. I don't mind irreverent or strange naming, but their name and how the use it with other products names is simply in poor taste.

 

[Grattle]

Amrim’s cultists are our in full force with their pitchforks and torches. This forum has a strange mix of:

Some intelligent people
Paranoids
Parrots
Outright morons
Guys living in moms basement

So much angst and closed mindedness here. I think I will close my account. You people are strange.

 

[SIY]

Amrim’s cultists are our in full force with their pitchforks and torches. This forum has a strange mix of:

Some intelligent people
Paranoids
Parrots
Outright morons
Guys living in moms basement

So much angst and closed mindedness here. I think I will close my account. You people are strange.

Truth is often less sensational than pseudo-science or witchcraft. - James Moir

And to do science, you have to do science.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Amrim’s cultists are our in full force with their pitchforks and torches. This forum has a strange mix of:

Some intelligent people
Paranoids
Parrots
Outright morons
Guys living in moms basement

So much angst and closed mindedness here. I think I will close my account. You people are strange.

So rather than decry our opinions on this article, how about giving us your opinion on it? Then we can disagree, or agree or ignore. BTW, I'd wager this forum has few basement dwellers than most which take part in the discussions. We could do a poll, but then people in the basement might not admit it.

 

[raistlin65]

Stoddard's post came across to me as pretty genuine, but I don't fault your skepticism.

Personally, I choose to purchase products from companies that already exhibit technical excellence and scientific rigor in their product development process. Extending my journey metaphor, I prefer purchasing from companies that completed this journey before bringing their product(s) to market, rather than after.

However, this is the current state of affairs in the audio industry... Schiit has demonstrated a willingness to change their products and I think Stoddard is demonstrating a willingness to change his perspective. Both of those seem like good things to me.

Stoddard is one of the smartest guys in the audio industry when it comes to marketing and promoting brand loyalty. So yes. No doubt his post will come across as genuine.

However, if he wants to convince me he has embraced audio science, he has to do more than claim he's the middle man, some kind of arbitrator of truth between the subjectivist vs. objectivist binary he set up in that piece. And that is very clever, because it allows people to claim they are not subjectivists, they are like Jason, while continuing to basically do the same thing that they have done before: buy his equipment based on subjective testimonials.

That being said, if the multibit upgrades disappear from the Schiit website in the next couple of days, I might be convinced that he is being genuine, rather than simply creating a narrative that allows him to sell his products.

 

[T.M.Noble]

I see this article and their lately shift to "herectic" opamps as a very targeted response to this forum. This is true marketing: selling people what they want.

I can assure you, after many long conversations and many pints of beer, that chapter was not directed at any particular forum, group or persons. The chapter is an attempt to find a middle ground and make more room for everyone who doesn't find solace on the fringes.

 

[pkane]

So rather than decry our opinions on this article, how about giving us your opinion on it? Then we can disagree, or agree or ignore. BTW, I'd wager this forum has few basement dwellers than most which take part in the discussions. We could do a poll, but then people in the basement might not admit it.

My man cave is in the basement... I must be a basement dweller?

 

[mansr]

So rather than decry our opinions on this article, how about giving us your opinion on it? Then we can disagree, or agree or ignore. BTW, I'd wager this forum has few basement dwellers than most which take part in the discussions. We could do a poll, but then people in the basement might not admit it.

There's a flat above mine. Does that mean I'm in the basement?

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you live in your basement or have a man cave, that is a whole different thing than living in Mom's basement. Ditto if Mom lives in your attic.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Stoddard is one of the smartest guys in the audio industry when it comes to marketing and promoting brand loyalty. So yes. No doubt his post will come across as genuine.

However, if he wants to convince me he has embraced audio science, he has to do more than claim he's the middle man, some kind of arbitrator of truth between the subjectivist vs. objectivist binary he set up in that piece. And that is very clever, because it allows people to claim they are not subjectivists, they are like Jason, while continuing to basically do the same thing that they have done before: buy his equipment based on subjective testimonials.

That being said, if the multibit upgrades disappear from the Schiit website in the next couple of days, I might be convinced that he is being genuine, rather than simply creating a narrative that allows him to sell his products.

He isn't claiming a business shooting for the stars. So even if he thinks multi-bit doesn't offer any benefits, his type of business would offer the customers what they want as long as they sell well enough.

 

[mansr]

If you live in your basement or have a man cave, that is a whole different thing than living in Mom's basement. Ditto if Mom lives in your attic.

My mum lives in a different country, without a land border, so I guess I'm safe.

 

[T.M.Noble]

"But he sounds so nice and reasonable!"
Argumentum ad temperatum at its finest. Still funny to see so much people fall for it.

Just out of curiosity, fall for what?

 

[Dimitri]

"But he sounds so nice and reasonable!"
Argumentum ad temperatum at its finest. Still funny to see so much people fall for it.

Potentially, the earth is square