Sanity check - LS50 Meta vs In Wall speakers

[Launagis]

Hi all. I'm trying to make my new house work for audio, and I'm almost there, but i just have this annoying vision of putting In Wall speakers, well, in to my walls. One problem is, that one side of the wall is open, and it is open where i should have to mount the speaker. So my general question is - would this be deal breaker, since from what I've gathered, you need flat wall to mount speaker into? Would I gain something in this situation, apart from bigger distance between speakers?

My house plan (red squares are subwoofer positions):

View of possible In Wall speakers:

And my temporary setup with two subs:

Thanks in advance!

 

[Marc v E]

If it were my house, I would ask myself if I would rather have a multichannel based system or purely stereo.

The reason I'm saying this is in case of multichannel, I would choose in walls and possibly ceiling speakers. The benefits of this imo are that multichannel can deal with oddly chaped rooms better and offers a better room filling sound. Further benefits is that it looks great.

In all honestly your planned speaker setup looks a little bit strange to me. I would personally choose to place speakers or in walls slightly to the left of where you have them in your drawings. I would expect the right speaker to benefit from less reflections. And I would expect the couch the have a lot of rear wall and side wall reflections versus direct sound.

All in all, thinking about it, my preference for a room like yours would be a multichannel setup with in wall speakers if possible. Btw, I listened to a friend's multichannel receiver playing stereo with 2 front speakers and 2 back speakers mirroring the stereo image. I can honestly say as a room filling sound and by tonality his system came very close to mine and superseded it in some areas while costing 3 times less. Highly recommended.

 

[Sokel]

I suppose the wall to the left is out of the question?

 

[Launagis]

If it were my house, I would ask myself if I would rather have a multichannel based system or purely stereo.

The reason I'm saying this is in case of multichannel, I would choose in walls and possibly ceiling speakers. The benefits of this imo are that multichannel can deal with oddly chaped rooms better and offers a better room filling sound. Further benefits is that it looks great.

In all honestly your planned speaker setup looks a little bit strange to me. I would personally choose to place speakers or in walls slightly to the left of where you have them in your drawings. I would expect the right speaker to benefit from less reflections. And I would expect the couch the have a lot of rear wall and side wall reflections versus direct sound.

All in all, thinking about it, my preference for a room like yours would be a multichannel setup with in wall speakers if possible. Btw, I listened to a friend's multichannel receiver playing stereo with 2 front speakers and 2 back speakers mirroring the stereo image. I can honestly say as a room filling sound and by tonality his system came very close to mine and superseded it in some areas while costing 3 times less. Highly recommended.

Thanks for replay! It will be 4.4 or 5.4 system in the end. In my previous place i had 4.0 system with large floorstanders and it was very enjoyable. We only watch movies with my wife, so phantom center worked well for us.

In this new place, speaker placement is very limited, if a want to keep them somewhat centered. The couch can't be moved at all, there is a door right next to it. Right now the center for the speakers if between two seats from the left. If i move speakers to the left, the center would be for the left seat.

So position is almost fixed as it is, only small changes could be made, also I'm thinking about absorbers on the right wall.

So my question remains, is open ended wall suitable for In Walls or the sound will be to disfigured?

 

[Launagis]

I suppose the wall to the left is out of the question?

Yes, there's an open kitchen to the left:

 

[Timcognito]

Interesting why aren't you using dry wall? What is the finish? Off topic I know

 

[Sokel]

Yes, there's an open kitchen to the left:
View attachment 270330

View attachment 270331

Call me crazy but in a room like this I would fit the speakers in the declined ceiling over the kitchen.
And I mean the biggest ones I could fit in.
(they would have no use for the TV though,I always forget that part since I don't use it)

 

[Launagis]

Interesting why aren't you using dry wall? What is the finish? Off topic I know

There is drywall underneath, I just covered it with plywood I like the looks and it very practical.

 

[Timcognito]

There is drywall underneath, I just covered it with plywood I like the looks and it very practical.

Cool clean lines and no base boards. If you get position you like In-Walls go better with the clean look. How about regular couch away from the corner in more centered position?

 

[Launagis]

Call me crazy but in a room like this I would fit the speakers in the declined ceiling over the kitchen.
And I mean the biggest ones I could fit in.
(they would have no use for the TV though,I always forget that part since I don't use it)

I'm currently working on this furniture piece, which will house 92" rising projector screen and two subwoofers, so speaker placement will have to remain the same:

 

[Launagis]

Cool clean lines and no base boards. If you get position you like In-Walls go better with the clean look. How about regular couch away from the corner in more centered position?

I like this couch a lot, so it stays. Also, two of the most used seating position are on the left, so it helps with the center, I don't think there is something to gain here. I know the place is a limiting factor, but i have to make it work

 

[Marc v E]

@Launagis great choice on 4.4 or 5.4 system! My personal take on the big screen and the speakers being far apart is that I would for certain choose a certer channel because the left and right are so far apart. You can experiment with placing the ls50 as far apart as you would place the in wall speakers to get an idea of how it would sound. (My expectation is that they are too far apart to work together as a pair, in other words that the center of the stereo image would not be there. Could be wrong.)

Now that I see the screen, my impression is that with in wall speakers you partly block the sound coming from the left and right speakers. Furthermore with front in walls there is a reflection point of the furniture peace containing the screen and subwoofers. Speakers placed on the furniture have a better position to perform well imo.

I would also experiment a bit with the couch and the distance to the rear wall. It is now placed directly against the wall. I would expect you get more direct sound and less reflections if you leave a gap between the couch and wall. Again, try it and see if it gives enough improvement in sound to be worth it.

I will think a bit more about it, since I feel I don't see a complete solution yet, but I do feel I understand more now you provided all the new pictures and your plans.

 

[Marc v E]

Btw I would choose the ls50 that you have for left and right as center channel and build it inside the cabinet. If I remember correctly it is best to fit it in a tight space, leaving no gaps. Others will have more experience with this than I, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Launagis]

@Launagis great choice on 4.4 or 5.4 system! My personal take on the big screen and the speakers being far apart is that I would for certain choose a certer channel because the left and right are so far apart. You can experiment with placing the ls50 as far apart as you would place the in wall speakers to get an idea of how it would sound. (My expectation is that they are too far apart to work together as a pair, in other words that the center of the stereo image would not be there. Could be wrong.)

Now that I see the screen, my impression is that with in wall speakers you partly block the sound coming from the left and right speakers. Furthermore with front in walls there is a reflection point of the furniture peace containing the screen and subwoofers. Speakers placed on the furniture peace have a better position to perform well imo.

I would also experiment a bit with the couch and the distance to the rear wall. It is now placed directly against the wall. I would expect you get more direct sound and less reflections if you leave a gap between the couch and wall. Again, try it and see if it gives enough improvement in sound to be worth it.

I will think a bit more about it, since I feel I don't see a complete solution yet, but I do feel I understand more now you provided all the new pictures and your plans.

Here is the plan for the rear position:

I will put two subwoofers in the furniture behind the couch, which will be pushed ~30cm/1feet into the room.

I will put all the electronics in the shelf above the couch, since i was clever enough to route speaker and HDMI cables below the floor when i had no clear vision of what should i do with the audio system.

I still have no clear impression of how my test system sounds due to the wall reflections, i was mainly focused on subwoofers and their placement, since i have to make furniture around them.

Here is my current setup:

Oldschool Yamaha RX-V1900
LS50 Meta above 200hz
SUB out > t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini > NAD 916 power amp > dual subs below 200hz

I played with EQ for about an hour, here are quick and dirty measurements at the seating position:

 

[Marc v E]

@Launagis my advice to you made me rethink the distance between my own speakers. Placed them slightly closer, now 2.5 meters apart, they sound better. Lol, the irony; best take my own advice to heart!

 

[Launagis]

@Launagis my advice to you made me rethink the distance between my own speakers. Placed them slightly closer, now 2.5 meters apart, they sound better. Lol, the irony; best take my own advice to heart!

There is this rule to follow equal triangle with speaker placement, which I can't follow here. Furniture piece at the front will be 2.5m wide , from the seating position to the speakers will be around 3.5m. Theoretically not ideal, but in practice it sounds fine. If I would go In Wall route, I would gain a bit of width between speakers. It's just that the right side of the right in wall speaker bothers me, since I have to little knowledge of how would the right speaker behave in this situation. So I bought LS50 Metas as a plan B, but it seems, that they are here to stay.

 

[Timcognito]

Seems like everything anyone says you have already decided what you are going to do. Not sure what we can do to help? Why build cabinets in front and behind the seating? Why not just in front, where wiring and LF delay is not an issue? Maybe you just like working with plywood

 

[Launagis]

Seems like everything anyone says you have already decided what you are going to do. Not sure what we can do to help? Why build cabinets in front and behind the seating? Why not just in front, where wiring and LF delay is not an issue? Maybe you just like working with plywood

I do like working with plywood And I've decided and on a lot of things, because some of them serve multiple purposes or are sort of easy to implement.

Cabinet behind would serve as a place to put a laptop and similar stuff, also would push the couch a bit into the room from the rear wall, which, from what i have gathered, would help with the sound somewhat. So putting two additional drivers and amplification is not such a big hassle and I believe four subwoofers would be better than two. But since i will be making front cabinet first, and if it would seem to be good enough, I might skip rear cabinet part. Also, wiring is not an issue, since all o the electronics would be in the shelf above the couch. And wires go under the floor back to front already.

What I'm not decided about is the thing which is in the title and I stress multiple times in this thread - could In Wall speakers work in my place?

Main problem I see is with the right driver - which would be on the edge of the wall. I fear sound from the left side of the speaker would radiate forward, and sound from the right side of the speaker would go over the corner under particular frequency, making sound uneven. And i do not know, how to calculate the effect and if I would be able to EQ it or not.

 

[Timcognito]

Main problem I see is with the right driver - which would be on the edge of the wall. I fear sound from the left side of the speaker would radiate forward, and sound from the right side of the speaker would go over the corner under particular frequency, making sound uneven. And i do not know, how to calculate the effect and if I would be able to EQ it or not.

Mount in-walls in the front cabinet that way both will have the same edge effects at its corners, at least you will get balance. Add a center channel.

 

[Launagis]

A year went by, I finished my LS50 Meta/4 subwoofer project some time ago. Some things I did/learned:

1) Upgraded sub amps NAD 916>Rotel RB-985>2xBehringer A800. Lovely to have gain knobs on the front, power is enough.

2) System seemed balanced well enough, but the sound was off. Put some absorbers behind the couch, on the ceiling and on the side wall. Improved things quite a bit. The uneven spatial effects due to room asymmetry are still there and I have little hope to do something about it. It is not optimal, but I can live with it. With movies it is less noticeable, since I run 4 channel surround.

3) I still run everything through Yamaha RX-V1900, which is the weakest thing right now. I want to go Denonx3800h route, but with Dirac and Audyssey MultEQ-x I'm looking at over 2000€, will have to wait a little.

4) Got 85" discounted Samsung the Frame 2022 model, very happy with it.

5) Four subwoofers is not gimmick. Just for sports, I tried achieving good result with front subs only and it was hard, especially bellow 40hz. Four is much more effortless. Corner loaded one is doing most of the work around 30hz. You can sort of tell it's location by the pressure, but it's well worth it overall. Especially for movies.

Now the problem section:

1) Power handling. For music LS50 Meta is enough for me, for movies I'm pushing things a bit too far. Had one instance of bottoming out LS50 Meta even when crossed at 100hz.

2) SBIR. Speakers are 30cm from the wall, i get strong dip between 200 and 300hz. I can fill this void by extending front subwoofer range, but everything sounds dirty, no surprise. So this problem is unsolvable, as far as I see it.

So all things considered, I think I'll go in wall route. Got them delivered to me: