Reverberant room vs "dead" room+dsp

[VietnamRadioEnjoyer]

Reading through some threads here, it seems that the general advise experts give is to not go after room treatment because we crave reflections & reverberations specially in orchestral music,
But for edm & pop music, gaming audio & surround speaker setups, a well treated "dead" room is better. Even for orchestral music some recordings have reverberations baked into the recording itself making a well treated room ideal

So wouldn't it make sense for audiophiles to aim for a well treated "dead" room & only add reverberations when needed using DSP filters?
I use easyeffects on linux. Here is its Reverberation filter settings:

Shouldn't we be able to fine tune the settings and only have reverberations when we want them the way we want them?
I think "dsp + well treated room" is a more controlled setting compared to relying on room interactions & if some scientific research is done in this area we can have better guide lines

(i don't have experties or the equipment to say anything confidently so this is just an idea after reading some forum threads)

 

[fpitas]

wouldn't it make sense for audiophiles to aim for a well treated "dead" room & only add reverberations when needed using DSP filters?

Yes, it would. But as of today, many audiophiles are deeply antagonistic to DSP. Never mind that DSP was involved in the processing of their music.

 

[Curvature]

Yes, it would. But as of today, many audiophiles are deeply antagonistic to DSP. Never mind that DSP was involved in the processing of their music.

Not it would not.

The main thing you would be missing by using that approach is the physical direction of reverbetation.

 

[Trdat]

I use Audiolense DSP for my crossover and frequency correction but is there a way to add reverberation to music I am listening to that might be dry?

 

[fpitas]

Not it would not.

The main thing you would be missing by using that approach is the physical direction of reverbetation.

Well that is a point. Not so much reverberation as directional reflections that add up to soundstage etc.

 

[dominikz]

Perhaps this article by dr. Toole might be interesting, here's one section from it:

And Now, What “Toole” Really Believes​

By now I hope that readers have concluded that the matter of early reflections in rooms is not a simple one. There is no single “right” way to do things. About 37 years ago, when I was setting up the NRC listening room, I ran a drapery track down the front portion of the side walls and across the wall of the room behind the loudspeakers, hanging 4-foot sections of densely-folded heavy drapes. The track was about 6 inches from the wall for good broadband absorption. These could be moved around, and in the case of the sidewall reflections, we quickly found that things sounded better if they were pushed back for more "spacious" classical music, and pulled out for "in your face" rock/pop stuff. I knew a couple of stereo enthusiasts who copied the idea at home. I concluded that, in terms of loudspeaker/room combinations, one size does not fit all. I believe it still to be true, but now we know a lot more about the factors that influence our opinions. Given the enormous variations in recordings, the absence of useful information on most loudspeakers, and the uncertainties of loudspeaker/room interactions, there can be no absolutely predictable outcomes. However, as has been found in many situations, human adaptation seems to save the day. We tend to get used to what we have, up to a point.

 

[SSS]

Reading through some threads here, it seems that the general advise experts give is to not go after room treatment because we crave reflections & reverberations specially in orchestral music,
But for edm & pop music, gaming audio & surround speaker setups, a well treated "dead" room is better. Even for orchestral music some recordings have reverberations baked into the recording itself making a well treated room ideal

So wouldn't it make sense for audiophiles to aim for a well treated "dead" room & only add reverberations when needed using DSP filters?
I use easyeffects on linux. Here is its Reverberation filter settings:

View attachment 322671

Shouldn't we be able to fine tune the settings and only have reverberations when we want them the way we want them?
I think "dsp + well treated room" is a more controlled setting compared to relying on room interactions & if some scientific research is done in this area we can have better guide lines

(i don't have experties or the equipment to say anything confidently so this is just an idea after reading some forum threads)

No, I don't use DSP which changes the music content and therefore I live with the living room as it is without acoustical treatment. Blues, Jazz and Rock music is recorded with and without reverbation content. So my stereo systems just plays the music and the impression is that the musicians are in my living room which is probably not acoustical perfect. For professional recording mixing rooms the situation is different and the room treatment may be needed.

 

[VietnamRadioEnjoyer]

Not it would not.

The main thing you would be missing by using that approach is the physical direction of reverbetation.

Is that randomness of directions something we want on top of reflections? I can imagine it increasing soundstage but what else it can do? I've head a dry setero setup which in some recordings made you hear things coming behind you so imaging can already be perfect in dry rooms.

By now I hope that readers have concluded that the matter of early reflections in rooms is not a simple one. There is no single “right” way to do things.

That kind of was the point i was trying to make. if we take random peoples random room interactions out of the equation we can have standards & guide lines & customizations based on individual taste. It might even improve the sound of headphones & IEMs because they should be the most dry

 

[SSS]

Perhaps this article by dr. Toole might be interesting, here's one section from it:

Right, nothing is perfect.

 

[fpitas]

if we take random peoples random room interactions out of the equation

But that was my ponit about soundstage. For example on some tracks I hear the sound go outside the speakers and in some cases entirely around me. That's almost certainly the room reflections interacting with phased material in the tracks.

 

[dominikz]

That kind of was the point i was trying to make. if we take random peoples random room interactions out of the equation we can have standards & guide lines & customizations based on individual taste. It might even improve the sound of headphones & IEMs because they should be the most dry

I can understand the sentiment, but it seems unlikely that any such standard would be globally accepted for stereophonic content - especially these days when people produce commercial stereo content in their bedrooms. Fortunately, it seems that the amount of early reflections mainly influences the spatial presentation of the sound, and not spectral accuracy.

So what we're left with are ways to optimize this presentation for personal preference.
IME avoiding early side-wall reflections results in narrowing of the soundstage (contained within the loudspeakers) and focusing of the phantom images. If early side reflections are allowed to reach the listener unmodified the soundstage can widen beyond the loudspeakers, but the phantom images will become less focused / more diffuse. It may also increase the sense of envelopment.
The amount/spectrum/delay of side-wall early reflections will also depend on how wide dispersion loudspeakers you use, on the distance to the side walls and on the amount of toe-in.

EDIT: These effects are spatial in nature and therefore to my knowledge cannot be replicated by using DSP effects with stereo loudspeakers in a "dead" room. You probably could replicate them if you set additional loudspeakers at the early-reflection points that reproduce appropriately delayed content - but that would bring us 'dangerously' close to multichannel.

 

[VietnamRadioEnjoyer]

But that was my ponit about soundstage. For example on some tracks I hear the sound go outside the speakers and in some cases entirely around me. That's almost certainly the room reflections interacting with phased material in the tracks.

Isn't that bad though? we want reliability. imagine that in a competitive fps game.
I guess that is why game industry is focusing on binaural & surround setups.

I can understand the sentiment, but it seems unlikely that any such standard would be globally accepted for stereophonic content - especially these days when people produce commercial stereo content in their bedrooms. Fortunately, it seems that the amount of early reflections mainly influences the spatial presentation of the sound, and not spectral accuracy.

So what we're left with are ways to optimize this presentation for personal preference.
IME avoiding early side-wall reflections results in narrowing of the soundstage (contained within the loudspeakers) and focusing of the phantom images. If early side reflections are allowed to reach the listener unmodified the soundstage can widen beyond the loudspeakers, but the phantom images will become less focused / more diffuse. It may also increase the sense of envelopment.
The amount/spectrum/delay of side-wall early reflections will also depend on how wide dispersion loudspeakers you use, on the distance to the side walls and on the amount of toe-in.

EDIT: These effects are spatial in nature and therefore to my knowledge cannot be replicated by using DSP effects with stereo loudspeakers in a "dead" room. You probably could replicate them if you set additional loudspeakers at the early-reflection points that reproduce appropriately delayed content - but that would bring us 'dangerously' close to multichannel.

Again I guess I was greedy wanting the same Binaural/Multi channel experience out of stereo.
but still, expensive stereo setup being stomped in spatial qualities by a $20 IEM & a ps5 just feels wrong. but that is the reality I guess

 

[fpitas]

Isn't that bad though?

I like it, and many other people do also. But the point is, that takes directional reflections.

 

[dominikz]

Isn't that bad though? we want reliability. imagine that in a competitive fps game.
I guess that is why game industry is focusing on binaural & surround setups.


Again I guess I was greedy wanting the same Binaural/Multi channel experience out of stereo.
but still, expensive stereo setup being stomped in spatial qualities by a $20 IEM & a ps5 just feels wrong. but that is the reality I guess

It is no wonder then that many audio scientists and engineers call stereo "spatially deprived" and/or "obsolete" The upside is it is (relatively) cheap, convenient and has a lot of history (and therefore a lot of available content).

Headphones/IEMs are a different ballgame altogether because they can make use of binaural technology. With loudspeakers you unfortunately need multichannel for a similarly rich spatial experience.

EDIT: Perhaps I should mention that I can still absolutely enjoy stereo as it is, even with all its faults

 

[fpitas]

EDIT: Perhaps I should mention that I can still absolutely enjoy stereo as it is, even with all its faults

I do, too. Clever recording engineers can achieve a lot of interesting effects.

 

[VietnamRadioEnjoyer]

I use Audiolense DSP for my crossover and frequency correction but is there a way to add reverberation to music I am listening to that might be dry?

Equalizer APO would be your best bet as I haven't seen it on any other DSP app that I've tried

I'm still interested in reviews & impressions of the filter vs real life & What you lose (or gain) in comparison

 

[LIΟN]

One option would be to place a speaker dedicated to reflections in this way and implement additional reflections as much as we want.

 

[DVDdoug]

There is a LOT of variation no in personal preference. Modern music is mixed in a "dead" studio and some people want to reproduce that. There was someone who calls these people "studiophiles".

Bass treatment (bass traps) is probably ALWAYS PREFERRED over no treatment. You get standing waves in the bass range that kill the bass at nodes where the waves cancel at certain frequencies and at certain places in the room. By killing the reflected bass you fix both the bumps and dips in frequency response, and throughout the room. You can tame the bumps with EQ/DSP, but you can't make-up for the dips-cancelation.

My room is not treated but I like to use a "Hall" or "Theater" surround setting on my AVR when listening to stereo music. I mostly listen to classic rock. I also have a shelf-full of video concerts, most with surround sound. It's proabably not "realistic" but most of them sound great to me! (It would probably be better if I treated the room to kill most of the early reflections but I don't feel like making things that complicated.)

Reading through some threads here, it seems that the general advise experts give is to not go after room treatment because we crave reflections & reverberations specially in orchestral music,

The problem is - The short reflections-reverb in your living room are nothing like the wonderful natural reverb that you hear from all around in a larger music hall or concert hall.

But for edm & pop music, gaming audio & surround speaker setups, a well treated "dead" room is better.

Possibly, but I like some artificial surround reverb with rock. A lot of popular music (most of it) is highly dynamically compressed which mushes everything together. In a real concert hall it might become a bigger mess. (Live music is less compressed and sometimes rock/popular music is played in music halls, and if the musicians are "smart" they could adjust their playing style.)

Even for orchestral music some recordings have reverberations baked into the recording itself making a well treated room ideal.

If you include realistic levels of reverb in classical or acoustic recording, it sounds unnatural coming from a pair of speakers in your living room (or with headphones). It's a compromise. If you've ever recorded a live performance from your normal seating position you've probably noticed that there's too much "room sound".

 

[ahofer]

If you include realistic levels of reverb in classical or acoustic recording, it sounds unnatural coming from a pair of speakers. If you've ever recorded a live performance from your normal seating position you've probably noticed that there's too much "room sound".

Agree, and it ain't subtle!

 

[dominikz]

If you include realistic levels of reverb in classical or acoustic recording, it sounds unnatural coming from a pair of speakers in your living room (or with headphones). It's a compromise. If you've ever recorded a live performance from your normal seating position you've probably noticed that there's too much "room sound".

Just to add that this is at least in part due to the fact that large halls contain diffuse reverberant sound energy which simply isn't possible in small rooms.

Further, when we record from a seat in a hall and reproduce the recording with two loudspeakers in a small room the result is that both the original direct sound (which we can normally localize) and the diffuse/enveloping reverberant field is reproduced from the same distinct sound sources (loudspeakers), and both follow the same early reflection pattern in the small room, with no reverberant field to speak of. So naturally we no longer have the means to distinguish the two, the original hall suddenly becomes part of the direct sound in our "small" room.