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Revel W990 Review (in-wall speaker)

respice finem

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...Or maybe I misunderstand what you are describing or seeking???
I'm afraid so. What I'm trying to say: A speaker can be as good as it may, it can only play as good as the room / the placement allows it.
Most people have no idea about how to measure room response, so guidelines like those from Neumann I had linked, are very helpful.
Many other manufacturers seemingly don't bother. We are not living on a planet of mathematicians or acoustics engineers.
How do I model my room, an L-shape with a "slanted" middle section, open towards the rest of the house? Formulas made for rectangular shapes don't fit it. I can only place my speakers according to the manufacturer's guidelines, so I'm happy to have these guidelines - not perfect maybe, but better than playing "trial and error".
 

abdo123

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The reference axis ("on-axis") for these speakers should be 30 degrees horizontal.
Since these are wall mounted speakers there is no toe-in possible.

Why you're assuming that everyone toes-in their speakers? on-axis has always been on-axis.

beside studios do toed-in in-wall speakers all the time, there is no boundary to what a person is willing to do to be ahead of the rest.

1630329359572.png


1630329418724.png
 

respice finem

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Why you're assuming that everyone toes-in their speakers? on-axis has always been on-axis.

beside studios do toed-in in-wall speakers all the time, there is no boundary to what a person is willing to do to be ahead of the rest.

View attachment 150427

View attachment 150428
Not bad... Still, the vast majority of speakers like the one tested will end up in the "average Joe's" living room, won't they?
Pros and amateurs are on completely different levels.
 

nathan

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I'm afraid so. What I'm trying to say: A speaker can be as good as it may, it can only play as good as the room / the placement allows it.
Most people have no idea about how to measure room response, so guidelines like those from Neumann I had linked, are very helpful.
Many other manufacturers seemingly don't bother. We are not living on a planet of mathematicians or acoustics engineers.
How do I model my room, an L-shape with a "slanted" middle section, open towards the rest of the house? Formulas made for rectangular shapes don't fit it. I can only place my speakers according to the manufacturer's guidelines, so I'm happy to have these guidelines - not perfect maybe, but better than playing "trial and error".

I agree that manufacturers should tell us how their speakers are designed to be placed.

I thought you were suggesting ASR change their measurement approach for each speaker based on manufacturer guidelines, which is not needed since the measurements cover approximately all the data points possible way past the point of human perception. Sorry for my misunderstanding.
 

nathan

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Not bad... Still, the vast majority of speakers like the one tested will end up in the "average Joe's" living room, won't they?
Pros and amateurs are on completely different levels.

I was gonna disagree that speakers costing more than $1,000 USD each don't end up in "average joe" listening rooms. But that I realized that they sure do.

Still, designing for people that don't care ("average joe" versus "audio lover high fidelity fan joe") seems short sighted. I mean, design it to work well for a quality installation, and the quality probably trickles down to less particular persons' systems just fine?
 

respice finem

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I agree that manufacturers should tell us how their speakers are designed to be placed.

I thought you were suggesting ASR change their measurement approach for each speaker based on manufacturer guidelines, which is not needed since the measurements cover approximately all the data points possible way past the point of human perception. Sorry for my misunderstanding.
At my math level, I'm happy to roughly understand the principle, I'm a physician so all I can calculate is mg, µg, and € :D
Still I'm happy to finally have my setup sounding like it should.
Still, designing for people that don't care ("average joe" versus "audio lover high fidelity fan joe") seems short sighted.
It is. But it brings sales volume, so it will continue. Sic Mundus creatus est. But even those who buy "consumer Hi-Fi" speakers could get better performance if they would know how to set them up the right way. I've seen horrendous speaker positioning in people's homes, and I'm sure, so did you.
 

abdo123

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Not bad... Still, the vast majority of speakers like the one tested will end up in the "average Joe's" living room, won't they?
Pros and amateurs are on completely different levels.

This is really the tip of the iceberg, some studios are so far ahead that they have the entire room covered with diffusers deep enough to diffuse sub-bass frequencies

1630329996884.png
 

respice finem

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This is really the tip of the iceberg, some studios are so far ahead that they have the entire room covered with diffusers deep enough to diffuse sub-bass frequencies

View attachment 150429
For the average Joe, this might mean bankruptcy and divorce, whichever comes first ;)
But seriously, as nice as it looks, should there not be at least some carpet on this floor?
 

nathan

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For the average Joe, this might mean bankruptcy and divorce, whichever comes first ;)
But seriously, as nice as it looks, should there not be at least some carpet on this floor?

Right, my spouse looks at a photo like that and says "do what you want....in the garage".
 

nathan

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I was thinking of the Neumann manual.
https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/7670/download
Took me a day to setup the speakers, but the result is (measurably and audibly) worth it.
Made me wonder, how much possible sound quality is wasted without "due diligence".

By the way, these are very good instructions based on good science. One might quibble with one or two things but in general these guidelines apply well to speakers that measure flat, and otherwise well. These are not the fly by the seat of your pants recommendations that many "audiophile" speaker manuals put forward.
 

respice finem

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By the way, these are very good instructions based on good science. One might quibble with one or two things but in general these guidelines apply well to speakers that measure flat, and otherwise well. These are not the fly by the seat of your pants recommendations that many "audiophile" speaker manuals put forward.
Exactly what I meant.
 

DualTriode

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I am not sure there is much science behind any of those recommendations. Half the time they are boilerplate writing anyway. They want to show us reality, give us measurements and why they recommend what they recommend. Not that some designer in his ad-hoc testing thought it sounded better one way or the other.

GedLee, Grumpy man that he is, has long been a proponent of toe-in to widen the sweet spot. It depends on the speakers angle of - 6dB of coverage.

PhD that he is, GedLee has the science to back it up.

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf

Thanks DT[/QUOTE]
 
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nathan

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GedLee LLC


GedLee,

Grumpy man that he is, has long been a proponent of toe-in to widen the sweet spot. It depends on the speakers angle of - 6dB of coverage.

PhD that he is, GedLee has the science to back it up.

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf

Thanks DT

That’s the exception rather than usual manufacturer blather in their user manuals about where to place a speaker which is what I infer our host is disparaging.
 

Rottmannash

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This is really the tip of the iceberg, some studios are so far ahead that they have the entire room covered with diffusers deep enough to diffuse sub-bass frequencies

View attachment 150429
Wow-room treatments from Hell! Love to hear what music sounds like there. Are they mixing Atmos there?
 

MdeVelde

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Why you're assuming that everyone toes-in their speakers? on-axis has always been on-axis.

beside studios do toed-in in-wall speakers all the time, there is no boundary to what a person is willing to do to be ahead of the rest.

View attachment 150427

View attachment 150428

Haven't seen a Revel speaker in a studio and haven't seen toed-in soffit mounted speakers in homes.
The Revel speakers tested in this thread will almost always be used without any toe-in and presenting the measurements at 30 degrees looks like the best way to go to me. Also looks like they'll measure better that way as well.

And my other point was that it seems to me that it would be a good thing to present the measurements of free standing speakers here with an optimal angle. Whether that is 0 degree toe-in or 30 degrees toe-in or somewhere in between. Since EQ suggestions are already given, toe-in suggestions should come before that I personally think.
And again, speakers tend to sound better in-room when they have a more even power response which is what you get when you don't toe-in (and still have a flat fr in the direct sound).
Just a suggestion.
 
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MdeVelde

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Hmmm... I guess the raw on and off axis measurements will let you ferret out this information if you want. Personally I'm not a fan of speakers designed specifically to be used NOT on axis, since my center speaker is always on axis, and I use the same kind of speaker for all positions in my listening room.

The CEA 2034 standard is pretty clear about standardizing things, which seems to be the basis (but not the full extent) of testing on ASR. Thats good and bad. Good in that it lets you compare speakers in a similar specifically defined room and placement. Bad in that it doesn't actually represent many specific real rooms etc so there is still an X factor. (For example: Got a lot of side wall absorption panels? You're breaking CEA2034 which expects normal domestic USA drywall.) But CEA2034 tends to be a better indicator of how a particular speaker will sound in a regular domestic living room than just about anything else. And if one wants to ignore it because it's not how one uses speakers in ones own room, luckily ASR also publishes the data behind the data.

---

Anyway, I disagree with the notion that in wall speakers can't be toed in. Lots of us home theater and surround sound buffs build baffle walls and have each speaker towed in similar to how the center speaker is...ie, on axis with the primary listening position. There are a plethora of examples but to choose one almost random example from the YouTubes, look at the HT Gurus channel, where everything he designs and builds is done that way. Looks at Anthony Grimani, Dennis Erskine, Nyall at Acoustic Frontiers, this is the way they use in wall speakers, as well. These are some of the industry leaders and their design choices get aped all over the place by other designers and by DIY folks.

Yes they can be toed-in but I'm betting that with these Revel speakers that will almost never happen in practice.
For center speaker use you have a good point.
Perhaps presenting both on-axis measurements and 30 degree off-axis measurements would be ideal here.
 

nathan

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There are several plots of how response changes off axis on the first page of this thread, just like most reviews on this site contain. Near as I can tell all the data you are asking for is data that is part of these reviews already.
 
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amirm

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Wow-room treatments from Hell! Love to hear what music sounds like there. Are they mixing Atmos there?
Blackbird studio was said to be the best a recording/mixing room could be. They spent tons of money on it. End result? A failure according to its designer, George Massenburg. He did say in a recent video though that it is finding some life in surround mixing and it is getting booked again.
 

Billy Budapest

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When the engineering magic is not hidden in a beautiful box, allowing the handful of electrical components and rather standard looking bass driver to be seen, it makes one question the $1750 each price point.
Keep in mind how these are going to be marketed—through custom installers. Oftentimes, the CI work is done in conjunction with a room addition/renovation. The speakers will be one of the smaller line items and everything will be financed through a construction loan.
 

krabapple

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Blackbird studio was said to be the best a recording/mixing room could be. They spent tons of money on it. End result? A failure according to its designer, George Massenburg. He did say in a recent video though that it is finding some life in surround mixing and it is getting booked again.

The photo shows a 13.X surround setup at least, so must be recent.
 
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