Rendu/Nucleus claim

[ahofer]

I corresponded with Andrew Gillis of smallgreencomputer.com about their products. I told him I didn't think the Rendu was really necessary, and he made the following claim:

We have found over and over again that even the best DACs can only reject some of the USB noise and that in all cases a DAC sounds better with a good low noise player.

There are many non believers out there and it only takes one listening session for people to be convinced BUT they need to hear it! This is why we offer the 30 day no questions asked trial on all our products.

I'd love to test this assertion. It's annoying that they've discontinued their cheapest product, so I'd have to purchase this-

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/music-players/products/ultrarendu?variant=47409865359

 

[Purité Audio]

Sounds like Andrew is a bullshitter.
Keith

 

[ahofer]

follow up (I asked if it was measurable):

It's very measurable and very audible.

If you measure the noise floor from the speakers of a system fed by a good source it is lower than if it's fed with a noise source.

The resulting audible difference is a more "3d" sound. You feel more immersed in the music.

An electrical engineer gave me the simplest technical explanation I have heard so far for this.

If you are going to design a filter that filters out noise you need to know the frequency of the noise. No filter can filter out all noise. So engineers guess what the most likely frequency of noise are.

Unfortunately noise covers many frequencies. The best way to get really good sound is to start with a presteene source. That way there is no noise to filter AND no noise that gets past the filter....

But don't take my word for it check this out

Hans doesn't take money for reviews like most web site reviewers. He also doesn't ask companies for products. I don't even know where he got the opticalRendu he tested!

It's a long review but he really does a deep dive on why the opticalRendu works so well and sounds so good.

 

[ahofer]

I don't really want to spring for the Optical, but I might spring for the cheaper one to test this.

 

[tmtomh]

If it's measurable he can share the measurements with you - which he won't, because his claim is not true.

 

[ta240]

follow up (I asked if it was measurable):

I love the way the manufactures quote the informercial hosts about their products now; as if that somehow makes it fact. It is on youtube so it must be true.

 

[samysound]

I corresponded with Andrew Gillis of smallgreencomputer.com about their products. I told him I didn't think the Rendu was really necessary, and he made the following claim:



I'd love to test this assertion. It's annoying that they've discontinued their cheapest product, so I'd have to purchase this-

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/music-players/products/ultrarendu?variant=47409865359

Is this one of their older products?:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-v1-4.1867/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...asurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/

 

[ahofer]

So I showed him the later review. Here's the overnight discussion:

Me: Can you share the measurements?

AG:

No I didn't do them so I don't have them. Noise floor measurements are tricky because they depend a lot on the system under test and the equipment used. What's important is that in A/B tests noise was much lower using a Rendu as a player than other noisy sources such as a computer.

ME: Another independent third party did not agree-

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-v1-4.1867/

AG:

Take a look. He tested it with a cheap iFi DAC. All we can do is get the best sound out of your DAC. If you use a cheap dac that is internally noisy there is not much we can do.

ME: That seems disingenuous. Noise at -122-130db is better than many kilobuck DACs (as well as inaudible), and noise is what is at issue. The addition of your device made no difference. And it seems like your claim would initially suggest that it would improve a poorly designed DAC better than an expensive one.

You may not believe this, but I want to hear differences - it would make audio more interesting. Yet what we have here is you making an extraordinary claim without evidence, and ASR showing evidence to the contrary. You should be able to respond with something better than this to be taken seriously.

I've offered $10K to charity for blind tests that show audible differences in electronics. [ @amirm ] Amir has agreed to run them in the past, and might re-up. Would you be interested in testing one of your devices with a DAC of your choosing?

 

[ahofer]

sigh. another round:

AG:

I'm not a huge fan of the type of testing Amir does. He does a test, gets a number that posts it as an absolute result that is infallible because his test was done so well.

In almost all cases the values he gets are different from the manufacturer so he calls them out as fake.

The manufactures are very reputable so I can almost guarantee the numbers they got are what they post so why are they different from what Amir gets? The answer is how the tests were performed.

This is where we get down into the weeds of audio. Testing noise can produce widely different results depending on the situation so are the numbers someone gets really "evidence" or "proof"?

This is why the scientific method is very important in this type of testing. You need to set up a system then only change one thing and see what difference it makes. That's what we do. Setup a system, use a mac mini or other music server to play music then replace it with our streamer and hear how it improved the sound. This happens on the same day in the same room with the same people present so nothing changes except the digital source.

I am not making "extraordinary claims" at all; they are based on measurements and the feedback from 1000s of customers.

If you had a rendu streamer you would hear the difference.

ME: You are the manufacturer, though, and you haven't provided measurements. Unfortunately, that's quite common in this space. But I think you are being unfair to Amir. Quite often his numbers are consistent with the manufacturer, and he often re-measures if there are discrepancies (I recall Neumann monitors as a case of that). My own criticism would be that the measurements go too far beyond audibility, so the SINAD wars probably aren't very helpful. Who can hear -122 in the noise floor?

"You need to set up a system then only change one thing and see what difference it makes. " I completely agree! That is what I propose. Set up a system going direct from USB to DAC, and then run it through your endpoint and compare DAC output via nulling.(1) Also set up a blind trial to see if some listeners can hear the difference in ABX testing. $10k to charity of your choice on the latter. I will make a donation to ASR as well to cover costs. Interested?


(1) if you read through the ASR threads on your products you'll see someone did exactly this with a rendu. They were identical.

AG:

Sorry I didn't mean to diss Amir I think he offers a lot of very useful data for people looking for audio equipment. I just think it's important to remember he is just a small point in a big world and all input should be considered.

Still no word on the $10k challenge. It does put him in an awkward position, but reveals a lack of confidence in the result, I think.

 

[ahofer]

AG:

(1) if you read through the ASR threads on your products you'll see someone did exactly this with a rendu. They were identical.


Yes exactly!! So If I posted data to say it was different you would call me a liar and point to this thread. If someone else posted some data in a different place I would call your post a liar and point to my thread. We would end up in a "liar liar pants on fire" debate that is so common in audio forums.

It is very important to get a large data sample when doing scientific research. There are many reasons that the test could have shown it was the same. It's possible that DAC was so noisy it didn't matter how clean the input was. Or it's possible there was another large noise source getting into the USB cable after the player.

What's really important here is to take all the data as a whole, not just one person's data.

ME: Hang on, I didn't call anyone a liar, let alone you. What I have to go on is a subjective review from Hans B (with a promised technical explanation), and measurements from Amir and others on ASR. I agree no one data point determines a result, but measurements are better than a vacuum. And technical explanations aren't terribly useful without measurements to validate them.

That's why I say "extraordinary claims". You are claiming something that, in the entirety of available (to me) measurements, is at an inaudible or non-existent level, but you aren't offering measurements or blind tests to back it up. I don't place much value on sighted listening, especially just a few cases, and certainly not my own.

I can see you may be in an awkward position here, but this isn't about people and feelings, it's about an interesting technical claim. But it appears you aren't interested in a blind test.

 

[Soniclife]

"The difference is huge and easily measurable."

Can I have measurements?

 

[Jinjuku]

follow up (I asked if it was measurable):

Hans is a demonstrable imbecile.

 

[ahofer]

Success?

AG:

Sorry I meant that happens a lot. I didn't mean you called me a liar.

I have 1000s of customs that say our products make a huge difference. I call that a good sample.

I am very interested in blind testing. We do a lot of that.

ME: Understood. I'm glad you are interested in a blind test. I will see if I can set it up. It would be a great testimony to the product if it worked.

As for 1000s of customers, that's great, but I have written on this sort of claim, because it is not dispositive. Market success does not prove product superiority.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...or-audio-thrive-in-a-competitive-market.9468/
---------------------------------------------

So. @amirm would you be willing to pursue this with me? I'm sure he wouldn't accept *my* system. There's a jackhammer outside my window right now, so my noise floor is 50-60 dbA!!

(and yes, I know, that isn't a complete 'yes', and I acknowledge it may never be)

The best test would be a blind ABX shootout between the Rendu and a Raspberry Pi, both configured as Roon endpoints into the same DAC. In addition to listening, capture the DAC outputs and null test.

 

[Phorize]

I corresponded with Andrew Gillis of smallgreencomputer.com about their products. I told him I didn't think the Rendu was really necessary, and he made the following claim:



I'd love to test this assertion. It's annoying that they've discontinued their cheapest product, so I'd have to purchase this-

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/music-players/products/ultrarendu?variant=47409865359

In sold my Allo usbridge and sbooster power supply and replaced them with a rpi4 to l feed my rme adi 2 and haven’t thought about it since. Yay.

 

[ahofer]

In sold my Allo usbridge and sbooster power supply and replaced them with a rpi4 to l feed my rme adi 2 and haven’t thought about it since. Yay.

At the moment my RME is fed directly by my NUC server, but I have a couple of Pi streamers and they sound the same.

 

[ahofer]

Naturally, Audiogon is breathless about it.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussi...the-internet-i-can-t-recommend-this-more-high

and Gillis is in there egging them on, throwing Beekhuyzen on it. Oh well, can't say I blame him.