Relocating the PC

[pseudoid]

One of the bigger problems we have thus far failed to discuss is the location of the hardware (both a heat-source and/or a noise-source) in relationship to the distance to the user's ears.
I find that a horizontally-mounted rack-mount chassis for a PC also helps out in noise reduction because the locations of fans are about 20% farther away (40" v. 48") from my ears. [inverse-square Law]

 

[pseudoid]

My points are that:

• Temperature & heat are not interchangeable.

Boyle's Law?

 

[Vacceo]

What extra heat? From +3W for the water pump?

Apologies to @Chromatischism, we're far off-topic. My previous post makes my position clear enough. I hope.

The one you get from going from the usual 60 celsius on the CPU to 35.

 

[Berwhale]

The one you get from going from the usual 60 celsius on the CPU to 35.

I think that in the given temperature range, the heat energy that needs to be removed from the CPU per second will be pretty much the same regardless of the temperature it's maintained at. Reducing the temp from 60 to 35 would of course require a greater rate of extraction, but this would take 1 to 2 minutes with a reasonable capacity cooling system, so the additional extraction be insignificant when considering the rate of over several hours of running time.

 

[napfkuchen]

The problem with these proposals is that I can not run a 4k monitor, let alone two plus peripherals, over Ethernet. Also, these NUC type computers don't meet my computing needs. If you had read the thread you would know that on the business end I need a full-featured PC.

You should have a look at the latest generations of these AMD/Intel-platforms, as their performance has improved a lot and they can run several 4k monitors. Sold my old computer (AMD Ryzen 7 3700x, nvidia GTX 1050 Ti etc.) recently and replaced it with an ASUS PN51 (AMD Ryzen 7 5700U) in an Akasa fanless case. I only use it for music playback/youtube/email/websurfing with two 4k monitors and it runs very smooth. The 5700U has a configurable TDP of 10-25W and is just as fast as a 6-core Intel i5-8600k (95W TDP).

 

[Chromatischism]

On water it gets worse, as the loop can reduce the temperature of the components further. That extra heat has to go somewhere...

It works great to reduce noise, but having a well-ventilated room becomes a must to keep low noise.

In my building experience, it just comes down to the fans in use, so water cooling is not really quieter than air. What it does is provide a much larger reservoir to hold stable temperatures, which benefits CPUs on the brink. Air reacts faster both up and down in temperatures and so is less stable on the edge.

I've gone air, air, air, air, air, then currently water, and next will likely be back to air.

 

[Chromatischism]

Well played!

Yes, bigger coolers can allow less airflow. Not sure I've ever seen a passive unit which keeps temps as low as even minimal-speed fans, but your point's valid enough. My points are that:

• Temperature & heat are not interchangeable.
• Changing a PC's cooling method is unlikely to significantly change the amount of heat the whole system produces.
• Corollary: changing a PC's cooling system is unlikely to change how quickly the room temperature changes.
• Unusual cooling methods - TECs & phase-change - are exceptions, but only because they draw significantly more power to run the cooling.
• In all cases, the power used by the PC - including its cooling hardware - integrated over the time it runs produces the total energy used. This energy is equivalent to the heat dumped into the room.
• Component temperatures do not provide this information. See item 1.

Executive Summary: To keep your room cooler over a given amount of time, you must reduce the power drawn from the wall.

Yup, or relocate the machine, which is the preferred solution. Currently the only way to maintain a fully functional PC with GPU, peripherals, and 4k 120 Hz monitors seems to be Thunderbolt over optical, which were discussed in this thread. $400-600 ea.

 

[Chromatischism]

You should have a look at the latest generations of these AMD/Intel-platforms, as their performance has improved a lot and they can run several 4k monitors. Sold my old computer (AMD Ryzen 7 3700x, nvidia GTX 1050 Ti etc.) recently and replaced it with an ASUS PN51 (AMD Ryzen 7 5700U) in an Akasa fanless case. I only use it for music playback/youtube/email/websurfing with two 4k monitors and it runs very smooth. The 5700U has a configurable TDP of 10-25W and is just as fast as a 6-core Intel i5-8600k (95W TDP).

I also use my GPU for acceleration in Photoshop and other programs, which makes a huge difference on the large files I open. Scrolling around a 10k pixel PDF in Photoshop with the GPU disabled is like I'm back in the 1990's with all the chugging and stuttering. It also provides the bandwidth to run multiple 4k monitors at good refresh rates. If you try that without a GPU with multiple independent DisplayPorts, you'll be limited to 30 Hz. That could change as we go forward but was the case last I looked.

 

[Berwhale]

What it does is provide a much larger reservoir to hold stable temperatures, which benefits CPUs on the brink.

I had a Pentium 4 OC'ed to 4Ghz in 2004 with a passively cooled Zalman Reserator (which I think held over 2L), I did add the forced air cooler to the Reserator at a later date (It didn't improve my OC).

 

[napfkuchen]

I also use my GPU for acceleration in Photoshop and other programs, which makes a huge difference on the large files I open. Scrolling around a 10k pixel PDF in Photoshop with the GPU disabled is like I'm back in the 1990's with all the chugging and stuttering. It also provides the bandwidth to run multiple 4k monitors at good refresh rates. If you try that without a GPU with multiple independent DisplayPorts, you'll be limited to 30 Hz. That could change as we go forward but was the case last I looked.

I wanted to give you an update with my initial posting as this already has changed ... AMD 5700U is a Vega RX 8 APU (so CPU+GPU) and supports 4 x 4k @ 60 Hz or 1 x 8k @ 60 Hz (I suppose Intels newest CPUs for NUC-use also does that). Of course there are limits to the performance of such small computers especially because of the TDP limit.

 

[bloodshoteyed]

Of course there are limits to the performance of such small computers especially because of the TDP limit.

ok, it is an unofficial tool, but none the less: https://amdaputuningutility.com/
amd apu's can take a hard beating on higher tdp's, but with the smaller pc's you're limited with the psu mostly (and the power delivery on the board itself)

haven't tried it on my pn51 yet simply because it's got way more under the hood then i can use up atm (and the cooling is a slightly under dimensioned)

 

[napfkuchen]

haven't tried it on my pn51 yet simply because it's got way more under the hood then i can use up atm (and the cooling is a slightly under dimensioned)

Exactly. Had a first generation NUC which was a very underwhelming experience. Even for "light usage" it was too slow. The 6th gen i5-NUC of my parents is alright for music playback as its sole purpose, but it's not a desktop substitute.
With PN51 and similar devices we've come to a point where there is plenty of performance for everyday use.

 

[pseudoid]

The following article is a good starter for "PC Cooling 101: How to Buy the Right Air or Water Cooler for Your Desktop CPU"
I only provide the above so that I can't be accused of hijacking this thread!
OT?: The latest Intel NUC12 Extreme is another 'gamer' changer (imo)

NUC12 Extreme - Dragon Canyon - is built around the 12th Gen Alder lake CPU (Core i9-12900 @2.4GHz).
The NUC 12 Extreme Kit is 7.4 by 4.7 by 14 inches (HWD), or just long enough to fit a full-length (12-inch), two-slot desktop graphics card.
Despite its small stature, the NUC's case has just about all the connectivity you'd want from a desktop.
*Up front, there’s a USB-C Thunderbolt 4 port, a USB 3.1 Type-A socket, an SDXC card slot and a headphone jack.
*And on the back of the Compute Card, there are two more Thunderbolt 4 USB-C connections, six USB Type-A ports, an HDMI 2.0b socket and two Ethernet jacks (10GbE and 2.5Gb).
Shown images are for the NUC12EDBi9 kit, which included the Core i9-12900 processor (there's also another kit with an i7-12700 available).
The Core i7 Kit starts at $1,150, while the Core i9 model we're reviewing sells for $1,450, and then you'll have to add around $1,000 for a GPU, memory, SSD and OS.
From <https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/intel-nuc-12-extreme-kit-dragon-canyon>
I can't wait for the NUC14 [?], when Intel finally decides to dump the fans and figure out way to cool it quietly.

 

[Chromatischism]

I built a small, quiet computer for the lady using a similar-looking Cooler Master SFF case. It's using a Mini ITX AMD 3600 build cooled by Noctua.

 

[bloodshoteyed]

about the only thing about cooling i'd llike to try out is this:

Search : LISTNOTEXIST | Akasa Thermal Solution

Akasa branded products including cables, cases, card readers, coolers, external enclosures, fans in many colours, hubs, and power supplies

www.akasa.com.tw

 

[Berwhale]

When I did my last build using those great Noctua fans, I actually bought a few spares.
Maybe I will get a chance to use the spares in my next build... if I don't go full liquid-cooling.
This spongy-foam material (image below) makes for a quite (also quiet] reliable vibration and sound absorption under hardware. [imo]
View attachment 201053
I wish I can tell you the exact type/material of this spongy-foam but they used to be a mil-spec item widely used also in commercial airline hardware.
I use this stuff below my NUCs, and even the aquarium pumps.
I finally found the stuff at aliexpress at this link. (200x250x10mm sheet costs around $25USD)

I used Akasa Paxmate many years ago....

Search : LISTNOTEXIST | Akasa Thermal Solution

Akasa branded products including cables, cases, card readers, coolers, external enclosures, fans in many colours, hubs, and power supplies

www.akasa.com.tw

It worked, but I don't think it's as effective as the pre-installed foam in my CoolerMaster Silencio case (I think the Silencio foam has a bit more mass to it)...

Silencio 352 | Cooler Master

www.coolermaster.com

The Paxmate is also quite tricky to install as it's extremely sticky (and sticks to everything you don't want it to including itself!).

 

[10khz-lpf]

Can I suggest my alternative option, since it may help some users here.

If you need it to be out of the way, not seen, and certainly not heard.....
Why not use an older Wifi Router which supports OpenWRT or one of the many Thin Client PC's on eBay??


I actually have a Netgear WNDR3700 I never got rid of from many years ago which was given to me for free from my housemates at the time since something related to the Wifi stopped working and nobody could connect to it, but it worked fine wired and otherwise. This unit has a single USB 2.0 port; I use it to connect a bus powered DAC since probably 5 years now and run MPD on the OpenWRT OS.

You can use any MPD client to connect and control the device.

Simply turn off all radios in OpenWRT.

My music library is hosted via a USB SSD which is attached to my main router.

Very simple setup; the router shares the Music directory to the OpenWRT device, the OpenWRT device has this directory mounted to where MPD can see it, MPD cycles through my albums indefinitely as I've configured it to do and I can sign in from any browser or mobile phone app to change my song / album / settings.

Before OpenWRT was sophisticated with package management, it would have been a big pain to set this up. In those days I previously used a HP Thin Client, with some kind of Atom or Celeron CPU, which consumed a low amount of power, like 25-30W. But the Wifi Router with all radios disabled only consumes maybe 7W, and the DAC is not even consuming 100mA, and the SSD should not be consuming much power either so it's a very efficient setup.


With that said...
If you're the kind of person who needs this PC to be a desktop substitute, well obviously a repurposed wifi router isn't it. But if it needs to do music playback ONLY, and do so reliably and without noise or cooling, and you aren't scared of a little command line for setup, I think it's a great choice that is hard to beat in terms of efficiency, customization potential and reliability.

 

[dualazmak]

I use two of my DIY built completely silent PCs in my audio system which have enough and stable capabilities in multichannel multi-driver multi-way, multi-amplifier stereo audio system; the latest total system configuration can be found here.

 

[10khz-lpf]

I use two of my DIY built completely silent PCs in my audio system which have enough and stable capabilities in multichannel multi-driver multi-way, multi-amplifier stereo audio system; the latest total system configuration can be find here.

You use NS-1000! I've owned NS-10 Studio for a long time. One day I'll get NS-1000. Though I think I've only ever seen NS-1000M for sale; I don't know what's different about the plain 1000 model.
I'm hoping one day I'll find some NS-1000 in my country for under $1000 without major faults. I know it's not too hard to find if I'm willing to import one from Japan, but the postage on those will be really expensive.

 

[dualazmak]

You use NS-1000! I've owned NS-10 Studio for a long time. One day I'll get NS-1000. Though I think I've only ever seen NS-1000M for sale; I don't know what's different about the plain 1000 model.
I'm hoping one day I'll find some NS-1000 in my country for under $1000 without major faults. I know it's not too hard to find if I'm willing to import one from Japan, but the postage on those will be really expensive.

Hello,

I have this post on my project thread;
- Difference between Yamaha NS-1000 and NS-1000M, and a few of reference websites for these two speakers: #084

you may find here (on the project thread) and here (remote independent thread post) the Hyperlink Index for my multichannel project.