REL Subwoofer to Class A Tube Integrated

[goat76]

I'll bet it can sound better with a proper sub/integration tools. Shouldn't you just be embarassed by following Rel marketing?

I use REL subwoofers in my system and I think it's extremely easy to get them to integrate well with the main speakers using the high-level connection. It has nothing to do with "following REL marketing", it's all about getting a seamless integration and how that is achieved shouldn't be anyone's concern as long as the result sounds great.

I have seen many people struggle with getting their subwoofers to integrate well with a so-called "proper" way of doing it, and many of them simply give up saying subwoofers aren't their thing, and that they are happier without them. A fairly simple solution to that can be to just let their subwoofers act as "bass extensions", and simply scrap the idea of high-passing their main speakers which they are already happy with the performance of.

 

[Clmrt]

Should I have concern using REL T/9i high level input (speakon cable) into a Class A Tube Integrated amplifier? Amplifier is Audio Note Cobra. Speakers are La Scala AL5.

Thank you.

Tu(be) or Not Tu(be)

There’s just something about tubes that are incredibly wonderful. Whether it’s the lovely orange glow from the power tubes, or the classic retro styling of many tube amplifiers or the lovely, harmonically rich sound of good tube amps. Whatever lights your fire, tube amps—even for those of us who...

rel.net

 

[mhardy6647]

Just today, I hooked up two non-Rel subwoofers via speaker-level input, but I don't necessarily like how Rel tries to hype the speaker-level input as more premium and superior to line-level input. I use speaker-level mainly due to convenience and lack of line-level sub-out.

Use of speaker level signals to subwoofers seems to be quite popular in some circles. It seems very brute force to me, though. I stopped using a subwoofer, but when I used one (i.e., a powered one) I fed it from line-level signals.

 

[Mnyb]

There was until “recently” ie traditionaly not a lot of options for home use it was speaker level or routing rca cables back and forth to a filter in the sub .
Sometimes there was a passive filter in the sub for the mains if you did speaker level that did not work very well usually suited for a special pair of satellites, usually a to high cross over .

The rca line level connectors usually had analog filters with settings and there was a phase control so this could work in theory.
But some more mystically inclined audiophiles where afraid of dirtying their “pure” signal trough this filter, this was mostly nonsense but if your sub placement required long rca cables you could get noise and hum .
And you were supposed to tune this by ear with no eq ? This would be time consuming and an almost hopeless task . You where setup to fail .

If you fast forward to “modern” times we now have to toolkit to get this working :

Digital filters .
Digital PEQ .
Measuring equipment a microphone + rew or other software.

This hopeless task can now actually be completed by a determined amateur the chances of success are good .
As bass is mostly the room not the speakers or the sub anyway.

Without the complete toolbox I do understand the REL speaker level approach as the risk of making things worse is great without all the pieces together . So if the mains sort of work you get a smidge more bass without messing up anything.
A practical aspect of speaker level that REL adress is thier special input and cable that makes easy to do .

The drawback is ofcourse that you leave a lot of performance on the table ( most of it actually) and don’t even adress the real issues with bass, your room .

Hence why there is so much nonsense around about “fast bass” and musical subwoofers ? Forget that it’s the room .

And yes REL own hype train can be tiring if you’re read all that you migth come away not wanting anything to do with their products.
In reality some of thier subs probably work fine but others with similar or better performance can be had for a much lower price .

I had a Stadium III fore a long time when that blow up I replaced it with a rhythmic FV15HP that was cheaper and better .

 

[goat76]

If you fast forward to “modern” times we now have to toolkit to get this working :

Digital filters .
Digital PEQ .
Measuring equipment a microphone + rew or other software.

This hopeless task can now actually be completed by a determined amateur the chances of success are good .
As bass is mostly the room not the speakers or the sub anyway.

Nothing stops me from using digital PEQ, a measuring microphone, and REW, even if I use REL subwoofers in my system, and as long as the integration between the main speakers and the subwoofers works perfectly without any audible problems (distortion or anything else) at all, there is really nothing to be won using digital HP/LP filters.

Without the complete toolbox I do understand the REL speaker level approach as the risk of making things worse is great without all the pieces together . So if the mains sort of work you get a smidge more bass without messing up anything.
A practical aspect of speaker level that REL adress is thier special input and cable that makes easy to do .

Using two subwoofers in my system gives me way more than "a smidge more bass", and I'm sure that is the case with most people's systems no matter if they using HP/LP filters, or if they just letting their subwoofers "take over" where the main speakers roll off naturally in the room.

As adding subwoofers to the speaker system is all about getting a complete full-range sound, it shouldn't matter how much of the bass frequency range the subwoofers carry versus what the main speakers carry, at least not as long as there is no audible distortion heard, and if you already are happy with the performance of the main speakers (except the point that they don't reach as low without adding subwoofers to the system).

Inaudible problems are inaudible problems no matter what type of solution took you there, or is it a concern to you if the subwoofers don't have to work for a wider frequency range, will they be of less value to you even though you reach the goal of a full-range low distortion system?

The drawback is ofcourse that you leave a lot of performance on the table ( most of it actually) and don’t even adress the real issues with bass, your room .

As already mentioned above, nothing stops me from using EQ to address the low-frequency problems in the room just because I use high-level connections to my REL subwoofers. I even see it as less of a risk of introducing latency if the full signal goes through a digital PEQ earlier in the chain, instead of having a built-in EQ in the subwoofers themselves.

Hence why there is so much nonsense around about “fast bass” and musical subwoofers ? Forget that it’s the room .

And yes REL own hype train can be tiring if you’re read all that you migth come away not wanting anything to do with their products.
In reality some of thier subs probably work fine but others with similar or better performance can be had for a much lower price .

I had a Stadium III fore a long time when that blow up I replaced it with a rhythmic FV15HP that was cheaper and better .

Yes, I don't chew everything REL says in their marketing but they are very easy to integrate with the main speakers, at least as long as you don't need HP for the main speakers due to high distortion levels, or if you need the system to be able to play a little bit louder before they reach audible level of distortion.

 

[Chrispy]

I use REL subwoofers in my system and I think it's extremely easy to get them to integrate well with the main speakers using the high-level connection. It has nothing to do with "following REL marketing", it's all about getting a seamless integration and how that is achieved shouldn't be anyone's concern as long as the result sounds great.

I have seen many people struggle with getting their subwoofers to integrate well with a so-called "proper" way of doing it, and many of them simply give up saying subwoofers aren't their thing, and that they are happier without them. A fairly simple solution to that can be to just let their subwoofers act as "bass extensions", and simply scrap the idea of high-passing their main speakers which they are already happy with the performance of.

There's nothing special about their high level connection, tho. Many subs offer that. Mostly for old gear without bass management. It is about marketing as those are the people it seems Rel aims at....old 2ch analog gear converts. Many people don't understand integration let alone do it well otoh. YMMV.

 

[Mnyb]

IME you need to have quite substantial speakers to not need to HP them even if you think you don’t . The REL aproach works better the bigger the speakers are with quite a low natural rolloff , preferably 3 way speakers .

Yes nowadays PEQ could be introduced anywhere in the chain . Even the OP could use this if he used a digital source.

Funny enough I also use dual subs with PEQ early in the chain at the source.

I get the feeling OP wants to use one only T9 and no PEQ ?

 

[Chrispy]

IME you need to have quite substantial speakers to not need to HP them even if you think you don’t . The REL aproach works better the bigger the speakers are with quite a low natural rolloff , preferably 3 way speakers .

Yes nowadays PEQ could be introduced anywhere in the chain . Even the OP could use this if he used a digital source.

Funny enough I also use dual subs with PEQ early in the chain at the source.

I get the feeling OP wants to use one only T9 and no PEQ ?

Maybe. Depends on use with "bigger" speakers.....then otoh some larger speaker drivers don't mean they're very good at lower bass.

 

[Chrispy]

Maybe. Depends on use with "bigger" speakers.....then otoh some larger speaker drivers don't mean they're very good at lower bass.

Let alone well placed for small room performance (small room meaning almost all consumer rooms)

 

[Mnyb]

Maybe. Depends on use with "bigger" speakers.....then otoh some larger speaker drivers don't mean they're very good at lower bass.

I was mostly thinking that they may not suffer to much distortion or in case of a 3 way speakers, no downside to the midrange of not having a high pass .

 

[Chrispy]

I was mostly thinking that they may not suffer to much distortion or in case of a 3 way speakers, no downside to the midrange of not having a high pass .

Not likely a decent sub will have worse performance down low compared to "3-way" speakers as those vary greatly as well. Many are shit.

 

[goat76]

There's nothing special about their high level connection, tho. Many subs offer that. Mostly for old gear without bass management. It is about marketing as those are the people it seems Rel aims at....old 2ch analog gear converts. Many people don't understand integration let alone do it well otoh. YMMV.

Yes, many people don't understand integration let alone do it well. That is the problem.

No, there's nothing special about REL's high-level connection, any subwoofer that offers such a connection can be used the same way. But even here at ASR, it's not uncommon for people to say they "don't like subwoofers" and that they are better off without them. The problem with that approach is that they actively decide against a full-range sound, which I'm quite sure most of them wouldn't do if they just got the main speakers and subwoofer integration right. So if simplifying it by letting the main speakers keep playing as deep as they go and using subwoofers with high-level connection filling in the last part of the bass is the solution, it shouldn't be ignored or downplayed as a non-viable option.

Who cares if REL uses the high-level connection as a selling point, it works and it's extremely easy to get a good and seamless integration with the main speakers using that method. It is a viable option for all the people (even here at ASR) who have tried to integrate subwoofers using HP/LP filters... and failed. If they already like the performance of their main loudspeakers without subwoofers, I bet they all will like them even more with seamless-sounding well-integrated subwoofers, even if the working solution is the use of high-level connections.