You might have got your RT's muddled up, but not sure. In terms of frequency responses have a look here:
For closed back you could think about these:
with that combination the minute you listen to it, bass is awesome with fantastic clarity of that bass, and it's just the most strikingly balanced tonality I've ever heard in a headphone with the Oratory EQ on that one. Soundstage is also pretty good on the HE4XX. My second recommendation would be K702 for it's soundstage & detail once EQ'd to the Harman Curve, but it has some drawbacks like solder failing in the earcups after months/years which means resoldering them, also distortion is higher in K702 but shouldn't be a problem based on measurements from Oratory (although from Amir's recent K7XX review he detected distortion where I think he praps shouldn't have done according to the measurements, so distortion may or may not be a problem with the K702....Oratory thinks no problem with the distortion measurements he did on it for instance). K702 is also more expensive in USA vs Europe/UK. So K702 might be your choice if you like living a little more risky & if soundstage is the most important thing in headphones for you, whilst the HE4XX is safer. I prefer my K702, both headphones have Oratory EQ's out there if you want to use them. If you don't get involved in the soundstage and don't listen super critically then HE4XX is the most impressive headphone, seriously impressive. (HE4XX still has good soundstage though, just not as good as K702) I'm not talking stock, only with Harman Curve EQ's as I don't use headphones at stock. HE4XX has low unit to unit variation according to Oratory, one of the best he's seen from that point of view I think, and also the variation from headphone placement on your head from one placement to the next is really consistent.....so given those 2 controlled variables I think that's how the Oratory EQ really nails the tonality perfectly on that particular headphone....there's just not much variation to be seen in that headphone.
For closed back you could think about these:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...commendation-request-thread.20261/post-805043
For open back it's a bit more tricky. I'm gonna give you two recommendations in that price range. First I'm gonna say Drop Hifiman HE4XX, that with an Oratory EQ is the most impressive headphone for me tonality wise and just totally Hifi
K702 thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-akg-k702-has-been-measured-by-oratory.22992/
Re soundstage, I have 3 open backed headphones (K702 / HE4XX / & HD600) and from best to worst that's the order in which they sit for soundstage, and in terms of all my headphones ranked for soundstage from best to worst it goes: K702 / HE4XX / NAD HP50 / HD600. So my HP50 is a closed back headphone yet has better soundstage than the open backed HD600, but I think it's generally true that open-backed headphones have better soundstage. If you get the HE4XX then you don't really need a closed back because with Oratory EQ the bass is EQ'd up to the Harman Curve all the way down to 20Hz, so you get full & clean bass extension on those open-backed headphones.....which is often a reason people get closed backs because they generally can have effortless deep bass, an EQ'd HE4XX (being planar) is one of the few open-backed headphones that can do proper convincing bass all the way down to 20Hz. Yes, so if you get HE4XX (and use EQ) then there's no reason to get a closed-back unless you want the sound isolation.
You're a tough one here, because lots of requirements/restrictions.My Beyerdynamic DT990 pro "died" today (after more than 10 years one driver started to play quieter and seems to be missing some frequencies), so I'm on a lookout for a replacement.
Country: Europe (no drop or too exotic headphones please)
Budget: 200 EUR, but could probably stretch it up to 300 EUR if it's really worth it (preferring a new pair due to warranty)
Form factor: over ear, open or semi open
Use case: casual listening - movies, games, music,..
Source information: Creative GC7 (10 ohm output impedance, "drives headphones up to 300 ohm" - the amp drives inefficient DT990s 250ohm perfectly fine)
Things that are important to you: long term comfort (not too tight, no hotspot on the headband), velour ear pads, availability and low price of replacement pads (original or 3rd party), detachable cable to one side only, I don't mind to EQ the headphones as long as the desired result's achievable with 10 band graphical equalizer
Your preferred sound signature/other headphones you've tried and liked/disliked: Beyerdynamic DT990 (too much treble, but I liked them otherwise), Fostex T50RP MK3 (my current "main" headphones which I like a lot, but treble needs fixing with EQ too), AKG K240MKII (meh sound, but I didn't mind the form factor and actually liked the self-adjusting headband), Beyerdynamic Custom One Pro (with velour pads, my current "fun" headphones, but I like open headphones more in general). Hifiman HE400se was dead-on-arrival for me, so I have no trust in this company.
What I consider:
Sennheiser HD560S - I tried HD650 in a shop, which I liked a lot in terms of sound, but the oval ear pads were very uncomfortable for my head/ears. I'm a little afraid that HD560S will exhibit the very same comfort issue. After market pads might solve the comfort problem, but sound signature will most probably change too much.
Philips X2HR - I am not so convinced about their sound signature + they have limited availability of ear pads or replacement parts in general.
AKG K702 - not sure that their frequency response can be "fixed" with 10 band GEQ easily, also reports of failing headband + soldering issues are kind of scary
I am not sure that headphones which I would like even exist, but I am open to any suggestions. The "worst case" scenario is that I will just keep using Custom One Pro headphones and switch to Koss Porta Pro when I feel the need for casual open headphones, but I would be missing the perfect opportunity to buy a new gear..
So maybe I can ask you some questions & make some observations that might narrow down the attributes that you like in a headphone, and might help other people make you some recommendations too. There I'm limited by DSP features of Creative GC7 which sadly offers only GEQ. The sound chain is PS4 -> hdmi -> TV -> optical dolby digital -> Creative GC7 -> 3.5mm headphones. I shouldn't need to bother with re-soldering within 2 years warranty window, but hopefully they'll last longer. Also I'll give Sennheiser HD560s/600 another chance, just to make sure that my first impression about their comfort is still valid.
Ah, you mention HD600 again, if you somehow find them more comfortable when you try them again, then that would be the one to get as nothing really needs to be done to it apart from giving it some bass boost, equivalent of Low Shelf at 75Hz, +3dB, Q0.7 (not quite Harman level bass boost, but for that headphone in particular I think it's a perfect match). K702 should help your virtual 7.1 surround sound gaming, I do a lot of that and K702 provides the best result with most situational awareness of enemy positions (I use SoundblasterX G6, 30% Surround Sound on the surround sound variable) - I'm sure this is related to the soundstage abilities of my headphones, as K702 is the best for this & HD600 is the worst. Regarding translating PEQ to GEQ, you could use REW (https://www.roomeqwizard.com/) to help you match to the curve more accurately than eyeballing the graph window in Peace. (You can use VirtuixCAD program and the SPL Trace tool within that program to scan visual graphs and turn them into text file data points that you can import into REW to as either Targets or measurements for EQ.)Thank you for your time to read and answer my post @Robbo99999.
My comments:
- PEQ vs GEQ - on my PC, which is my main source for music I use PEQ exclusively. But this quest is to find headphones for my "fun zone" - smart TV with PS4 console.
- bass - I am a fan of bassy sound, but it should be clean. It's probably safe to say that I like Harman curve (for games/movies I tend to add even more bass below ~100Hz). This is usually easily achieved with a simple EQ, or some clever DSP tricks ("extra bass" feature of Creative DAC/amp).
- soundstage - I never paid too much attention to this attribute, doing A/B comparison with different EQ settings I prefer when the sound "opens up", but it's not a must have feature. I use DSP with virtual surround (either a generic one, or tailored to ones ears - SXFI), which I find especially nice for games and movies. When listening to music I keep such feature at low level, just to avoid hard left/right channel separation. I haven't listened to "pure headphones stereo" sound in years.
- planars - I already have cheap(ish) Fostex T50RP MK3 and I have zero complaints against planar headphones. It's just that I would like to avoid Hifiman due to their quality control. I might re-consider purchasing HE400se (probably the only model fitting my budget), but I didn't really like their weight and stock cable would require immediate replacement (which to my surprise isn't really available for purchase locally).
- closed back headphones - I already have them and even if they feel quite open (Beyerdynamic Custom One Pro with velour pads), I still somehow prefer really open headphones. It's not about sound quality difference, but a physical (?) feeling of closed/open air flow around my ears. Open ones are much more "natural" for me.
I suppose that you are really happy with AKG K702 as you recommend them quite often, I will try to see if I can audition them in some shop.
Btw. I "translated" PEQ to GEQ a couple of times already, I start with some well known preset (e.g. Oratory), fine tune it to my preference and then I try to match the PEQ curve with GEQ in Peace equalizer GUI (result is then used on a smartphone or Creative DAC/amp). It certainly isn't 100% accurate, but if PEQ isn't too complex, I'm able to achieve "close enough" results, which are completely fine for movies/games/casual music listening. If that would be the case also with AKG K702, I guess I have the #1 candidate for a new purchase.
I am in no hurry to buy new headphones, other suggestions/recommendations are still welcome.
In each case, thank you again for your time.
Thank you for the further inputs. At the moment I have 2 candidates - AKG K702 and Sennheiser HD560s. None will be perfect - AKG has more expensive ear pads, failing headband and fragile soldering; Sennheiser will be probably less comfortable, even though 560s seem to have different ear pads than HD600/650, which could be an important factor. 560s should have response quite similar to HD600/650 models, so they are probably a little easier to "fix" with GEQ.
That HD560S looks like a nice smooth frequency response and not far off Harman, and more bass than the HD600 as an added bonus:
HD560s have angled drivers as you found out which should be good as you say. I noticed that Koss Porta Pro which sit on ear directly with low clamping force, so are technically angled have very good "soundstage" - these are the only headphones which I can use without any crossfeed/virtualization effect. I am not sure if that's the main reason of this outcome, but I like it.
HD560s looks a bit better in the treble and bit less jagged, bass might be easy to EQ up with GEQ too.....I don't know if you can stipulate where the GEQ bands are, I suspect not, so have a play with the different frequency responses to see how easy you can GEQ each one.HD560s have angled drivers as you found out which should be good as you say. I noticed that Koss Porta Pro which sit on ear directly with low clamping force, so are technically angled have very good "soundstage" - these are the only headphones which I can use without any crossfeed/virtualization effect. I am not sure if that's the main reason of this outcome, but I like it.
Btw. I forgot about Philips X2HR headphones - these seem to fit into all of my expectations, have angled drivers and I am pretty sure that would fit my head comfortably as they use round earpads + suspension headband. I know that original earpads are unavailable, but it should be possible to use any 3rd party earpads with the right adapter (I already have a couple of such earpads at hand). Reading review by Solderdude I'm a little afraid of the quality control though. I would have to purchase them from Amazon UK and any returns would be quite a hustle (and costly). They seem to have higher distortion than Sennheiser HD560s, but I am not really expecting to hear such a difference (I was using Beyerdynamic DT990 for years and didn't notice any distortion, even if they measure terribly).
Any long term owner who could chime in about build quality of X2HR after a few years of usage..?
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Ah, you went for the HE4XX I recommended you, when does it arrive? When does the HD560s arrive? I nearly bought an HD560s myself yesterday!
Nice, good call! If I was you I wouldn't even listen to them at stock, I'd put the EQ on (I guess Oratory's) and then listen to them EQ'd like that immediately, I'd do the same for when the HE4XX arrives & for when you compare them against one another. The reason being is that your brain will fairly quickly adapt to the stock sound of a headphone as long as it's not a really horrid frequency response, so it's probably better to not train your brain into bad habits. Have you got other headphones that you currently own that are EQ'd to the Harman Curve - you can compare them to get a feeling of if any improvements with your latest purchase, and can compare soundstage, etc? Have you ever listened to a headphone EQ'd to the Harman Curve.....do you know yet whether you are a Harman Curve fan or not? Not everyone likes the Harman Curve, but a lot of people do (most), and first port of call is to tweak the Gain (increase or decrease dB) on the Low Shelf Bass Filter to get the bass level balanced to your preference.....because it's possible you won't like the stock Harman Curve level of bass, but again most people are ok with the stock Harman Curve bass level. Do you have any flat reference speakers you can compare your headphones against.....in terms of judging if tonality is right, it's ok if you don't, I'm just trying to guage what kind of listening comparisons you can make when your new headphones arrive? I'm certainly interested in what you think to the HD560s considering I'm playing with the idea of buying them.....and of course I'll be interested in how you get on with the HE4XX, and I hope my recommendation for that headphone will have been warranted.
My usual process of testing is without EQ when i get new headphones and use them for a week prior to making any tweaks. I always find little tidbits of information and how the headphones respond to certain frequencies when testing them out of the box.
If you know you like the Harman Curve, then there's no point listening to headphones at stock for a week. I mean maybe for the HD560s because it's so close, but not for the HE4XX. To be honest, after a week of listening to any headphone, that will seriously burn-in your brain to that sound signature, and the more crazy the frequency response is for that headphone then the weirder it will sound when you listen to a headphone that is "statistically" more "accurate" (eg Harman)....really not a fan of your idea of listening to a headphone at stock for a week. I'd recommend fairly short sharp listening tests if using at stock with immediate flipping of Harman EQ on/off to really get to grips with some proper sound comparisons - do it on a short selection of tracks you know really well that cover the main genres you're interested in, but to dense/busy well-recorded music that has instruments or electronica throughout the frequency range from low bass upwards is probably best to gauge general performance / seperation of layers of detail & tonality. No one ever needs to deliberate for a week when just listening at stock, because you can't remember a sound signature for comparison beyond a few seconds (we can't accurately remember how something sounds for more than like 20seconds - it's been proven), so nothing gained from just using a headphone at stock for a week - literally all that will happen is that your brain will get burned-in to the new sound until it sounds "normal" - which is why there was myths going around the internet for years that you need to run your headphones for 200hrs to burn them in.....that's nonsense, instead it's your brain getting used to the new sound.
