Recommend speakers that disappear

[ppataki]

There is a really long thread about this whole topic here:

What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

I noticed that some speakers just disappear and it feels like the sound appears out of thin air, and others don't feel like that at all, and the sound is just coming out of 2 speakers. What makes speakers "disappear" and can it be measured?

audiosciencereview.com

(apologies if it was already posted in this thread)

I was the first one to respond back in 2021 with saying that the key is point-source or quasi point-source (by time-aligning the drivers)

In the last 4 years I have had literally more than a dozen full-range (FR) projects (all of them are documented here on ASR) and I can safely say that all of them 'disappeared' by default; anybody that came to audition those started with saying 'Woooow, I could not tell where the speakers are!!'

Then I had this classic 2-way project and I have to say that even after very accurately time-aligning the drivers the speakers did not disappear nearly as much as with any of the full-range ones mentioned above.
Then I had this coax project (and will have another coming in April) and similarly to the full-range ones, the speakers disappear by default, the stage is as holographic as with the FRs

Just sharing my first-hand experience.....

 

[DonH56]

Perhaps it might help to say, "I want speakers that create so many reflections that its direct sound is less prominent in the sound field". In which case, the answer would be dipoles and omnis.

You mentioned boxy sound. I had an interesting discussion with an Australian speaker designer (who designs dipoles). He used that term "boxy sound" as a reason why he prefers dipoles. I asked him "what is boxy sound, and what properties of a speaker create it?". His answer was (paraphrasing here), "Boxy sound sounds as if everything from the left channel is localised to the left speaker. The stereo image is hard panned left and right, with nothing in the centre and nothing lateral to the speakers. There is no soundstage depth. The speakers that typically do this are monopole speakers, especially monopole speakers with a narrow cone of radiation, and especially horns. Excessive room treatment can also contribute, and also bad recordings".

I have no idea if he is right or not. So this thread needs more @Duke and more @DonH56. What do you guys think boxy sound is? And why does it happen?

I have not followed this thread, am not a speaker designer, and defining "boxy sound" is outside my scope. IME it can be from several things: limited dispersion ("beaming") and poor speaker placement (e.g. "hole in the middle" from speakers too widely spaced), lack of a reverberant field (limited reflections due to placement and/or room treatment), and/or poor frequency response (e.g. upper midrange peak sounding "honky").

Panel speakers beam much worse than conventional speakers -- it's physics. What makes them sound "big" is a combination of large panels and not damping the back wave so allowing the back wave to reverberant through the room. Makes the sound "bigger" but also often smears the image badly, so you trade precise imaging for a "big" sound field. Bose 901's are the typical example of using the back wave and room to create a "spacious" sound field at the cost of imaging. Many people love that; I do not, preferring more precise placement of the instruments and vocals to having vocals and solo instruments spread all around the room.

Many people prefer a "live" room, at least to a point, as shown by Toole and others. But the sense of space is embedding in the recording, or should be, so a properly placed pair of speakers provides a sense of depth no matter their type (conventional, horn, panel). Dipole/panel speaker designers (and marketeers) have used "boxy sound" for decades to contrast their designs from conventional speakers, but IME it is more about the look and pure size of the panels than some inherent deficiency in conventional speakers. Often enough, they (and salesmen, and owners) simply have people stand up to prove their point, since vertical dispersion is often more limited and when you stand you are well above the target plane of conventional speakers. What they do not say is that the vertical dispersion of panels is normally much less ("worse") than conventional speakers; the "improvement" is simply because the panels are taller. You could get the same effect by tilting conventional speakers up to aim the sound higher. Most designs assume critical listening is done while seated.

My Salon2's are fairly tall and I did not find the sound field collapsed when I went from my beloved Magnepan's to Salon2's. I was expecting some, but it simply did not happen, unless of course I stood up close to the speakers. In the primary listening positions, all seated, there simply wasn't any loss of "space" in the sound. Marketing plays (or maybe "preys") on an unrealistic assumption (IME/IMO) that users stand close to the speaker whilst listening to music or movies so a big panel provides a better sense of space. Then it is easy to place conventional speakers for comparisons so as to compress (or expand) the sound field abnormally to "prove" their point.

IME/IMO - Don

 

[Duke]

You mentioned boxy sound. I had an interesting discussion with an Australian speaker designer (who designs dipoles). He used that term "boxy sound" as a reason why he prefers dipoles. I asked him "what is boxy sound, and what properties of a speaker create it?". His answer was (paraphrasing here), "Boxy sound sounds as if everything from the left channel is localised to the left speaker. The stereo image is hard panned left and right, with nothing in the centre and nothing lateral to the speakers. There is no soundstage depth. The speakers that typically do this are monopole speakers, especially monopole speakers with a narrow cone of radiation, and especially horns. Excessive room treatment can also contribute, and also bad recordings".

I have no idea if he is right or not. So this thread needs more @Duke and more @DonH56. What do you guys think boxy sound is? And why does it happen?

Some years ago I manufactured a monopole floorstander that used a 10" waveguide and a 10" woofer. The waveguide was a 90-degree constant-directivity type, crossed over to the woofer where their radiation pattern widths matched (about 1.5 kHz as I recall). I subsequently made a bipolar version thereof, same drivers on the rear as on the front but the cabinet was much wider. So this was arguably pretty close to an "apples to apples" comparison of the two different directivies. Imo music was noticeably more "detatched" from the speakers with the bipolar version, consistent with what your Australian manufacturer friend described. It was kind of like there was music happening just in the air at that end of the room, and then there were these two big boxes in the same area. And as long as the bipolar version wasn't too close to the front wall, there did not seem to be any significant downside (other than the increased speaker size and cost).

Since then I've just about always incorporated some rear-firing energy, such as a rear-firing tweeter, with imo similar benefits to spatial quality.

 

[Heinrich]

1. Speakers that disappear so I can't pinpoint that the sound is coming from the speakers.
2. Boxy sound that seems common with the boxed speakers I have heard

Currently I own B&W 804 Nautilus ...

In case your hearing is o/k, speakers will never disapear. That legendary saying is an advertizing hook from the advent of stereo. Imagine,there are so many cues that reveal the speakers' position, how would a sane hearing miss them alltogether? I recommend, rather than Revels, some music that engages even if the stereo effect isn't perfect. And better keep away from contemporary B&W, my personal opinion, as they don't solve any 'boxy' problem with the iconic 'Nautilus' approach, in my personal layman's understanding.

 

[Descartes]

KEF Reference Series

 

[Clmrt]

NHT Classic 3 or 4

 

[Heinrich]

KEF Reference Series

NHT Classic 3 or 4

Sorry, a spontaneous idea was to show you some Woodstock speakers, if that makes sense. But, JBL and others commercialized that event so much, all those nasty pictures and useless videos are under Instagram/Pinterest/Facebook control.

Derive your conclusions. It is a myth, simply. A fraudulent one.

 

[Chrispy]

Seems the particular room/setup has a lot to do with it aside from a brand/model of speaker....

 

[Heinrich]

Seems the particular room/setup has a lot to do with it aside from a brand/model of speaker....

I don't think so. It appears to me a myth, to "make the speakers disappear". It never ever worked for me longer than the first exitement of about 10...2 minutes. Counting down with xperience.

 

[Chrispy]

I don't think so. It appears to me a myth, to "make the speakers disappear". It never ever worked for me longer than the first exitement of about 10...2 minutes. Counting down with xperience.

I've had speakers become non localizable to an extent, which may qualify as disappearing I suppose. Closing my eyes in a multich arrangement is pretty good, tho.

 

[Beave]

I think we lost the OP, they were never seen again after that first post...

Same person posted the same question at another audio forum - and also never followed up with any replies to the responses there either.

 

[Heinrich]

Same person posted the same question at another audio forum - and also never followed up with any replies to the responses there either.

It doesn't astound me. People ask for the magic recipe to realize the promises advertized by the high-gloss magazines.

(Reiterated, if I wasn't able to detect the speakers' location, I would visit my physician.)

 

[Galliardist]

I've had speakers become non localizable to an extent, which may qualify as disappearing I suppose. Closing my eyes in a multich arrangement is pretty good, tho.

My system, the speakers are far from optimally set up, and the image appears slightly in front of the speakers with depth. For a mono or single instrument Anything panned full left or right gives the game away though as it just comes out of the speaker. (I'm pretty certain that to get beyond that you need reflections, additional sources (ie multichannel), or some specific processing of the signal.) At some point, you will hear sounds come from the speakers, no matter how good the imaging is between them.

I don't mind it like that. I actively dislike the "singer in the room" type image where the centre is projected forwards out of the soundstage, which is a goal for many of course.

I've always thought that the "disappearing speakers" thing where the image projects beyond the speakers, and which I've never really heard happen to the extent it gets described, is a function of the room and speaker positioning, rather than the speakers themselves. The same seems to apply to soundstage depth, but that is also a function of the recording. I'm not sure how much of a role the recording plays in this disappearing thing. I don't have any experience with omnis.

Because my speakers do give a consistent image, and I don't have much scope for speaker placement, I've left my setup as is.

 

[Galliardist]

Same person posted the same question at another audio forum - and also never followed up with any replies to the responses there either.

@xkhjkdwq - it would be polite at this point to respond to the people here trying to answer your question, please.

 

[Thomas_A]

This has been written in other threads as well, but resonances, frequency response errors and early reflections from the speaker side reveals distance and speaker position. Also the "stereo errors"contribute, and I therefore prefer a small dip 3-4 kHz combined with "no dip in dispersion" 1-2 kHz. Some say that the speakers sound too "polite" and "laid-back" but I like that.

 

[AdamG]

@xkhjkdwq - it would be polite at this point to respond to the people here trying to answer your question, please.

It’s also not unusual for some to post a particular question that they feel is important to their personal Audio journey across several Audio Forums. So, let’s give the new member a chance. After reading a few of the comments. It’s not entirely surprising that he has not responded.

 

[Keith_W]

Anyway, like I was alluding to in my previous post, if you want speakers to disappear you want a low DRR (direct to reverberant ratio). This is the ratio of the direct sound to reverberation. Here are a couple of factors that contribute to this:

- speakers that have a low directivity index - i.e. speakers that throw sound everywhere, like omnis, or speakers with wide radiation pattern
- listening room - you have to sit far enough so that you are close to, or beyond the critical distance
- Room treatment. The more room treatment you have, the closer you have to sit to the speakers to have the same DRR.

 

[goat76]

Anyway, like I was alluding to in my previous post, if you want speakers to disappear you want a low DRR (direct to reverberant ratio). This is the ratio of the direct sound to reverberation. Here are a couple of factors that contribute to this:

- speakers that have a low directivity index - i.e. speakers that throw sound everywhere, like omnis, or speakers with wide radiation pattern
- listening room - you have to sit far enough so that you are close to, or beyond the critical distance
- Room treatment. The more room treatment you have, the closer you have to sit to the speakers to have the same DRR.

I'm sorry, Keith, but I disagree with what you are saying here, and in my opinion, it's the opposite of what you are saying that will have a better chance of making the loudspeakers "disappear".

The most important aspect IS a high ratio of direct sound and loudspeakers that are properly set up for them to perfectly work in tandem to together create a convincing stereo illusion, and the more you hear the stereo illusion the less chance it will be that you hear the positions of the loudspeakers. It is when the stereo illusion IS the dominant factor, and you mostly hear "into the recording" with minimized/lessened impact from your listening environment that the loudspeaker will have a bigger chance to disappear.

As long as you minimize the listening triangle enough to maximize the direct sound and your listening position is inside the critical distance, the directivity index of the loudspeakers will be less important as long as they are properly set up when it comes to toe-in. The toe-in setup of highly "beaming" loudspeakers with narrow dispersion will just be a bit more critical to get perfectly right (so that no double effect* will occur), and you will probably miss more of the envelopment sensation that you (sitting inside the critical distance) will hear as a "secondary sound contribution" somewhat separated from the high ratio of direct sound that the smaller listening triangle will give you. (But the enveloping sensation is another subject and doesn't have anything to do with the "disappearing" of the loudspeaker, that is a "secondary effect" where we actually want a contribution from the listening environment).

(* I have heard the double effect occur when listening to speakers with horns when the loudspeakers didn't have enough toe-in, and I could clearly hear the singer's voice coming from both the loudspeakers and not from the phantom center where the voice should be coming from. This will definitely "give away" the position of the two loudspeakers and will destroy the stereo illusion and any chance for the loudspeakers to disappear.)



Here are my points for getting the loudspeakers to disappear:

• A high ratio of direct sound maximizes what is heard in the recording and will make the listener hear the stereo illusion instead of two sound sources/"two loudspeakers in a room". A smaller listening triangle with shorter distances to the loudspeakers will help to maximize the direct sound that carries the stereo illusion. Acoustic room treatment will also contribute to a higher ratio of direct sound by minimizing the early reflections from the listening environment, which otherwise will make it harder to hear what is in the stereo illusion.
• Properly positioned loudspeakers that work in perfect tandem together are of the highest importance to create a proper stereo illusion. The two loudspeakers are not supposed to create two separate sounds, they should together create one single unified stereo illusion.
• The best single aspect/indication that the two loudspeakers are positioned correctly is that they together create a distinct-sounding phantom center, almost as distinct-sounding as if a physical real center speaker were in place. The phantom center can be seen as the "anchor" that sets all the rest of the "stereo puzzle" right.
• The frequency response of the two loudspeakers should match well, especially above the point where our hearing is the most sensitive to directional cues.
• Loudspeakers with low levels of distortion and resonance will lessen the risk of giving their positions away.

Many modern audio productions contain hard-panned sound objects and can't "escape" from the position of the loudspeakers (unless some phase tricks are going on in the sound mix), but I think that should count more as a "visual problem" as that wouldn't be a problem if the loudspeakers weren't seen, say if a large curtain was hiding their positions.

I probably missed one or two additional important points, but the above points are likely the most important ones.

 

[Heinrich]

... will make the listener hear the stereo illusion

Would you agree that getting into the illusion takes some effort on the listener's side? If it is so, what kind of an illusion is it? I mean to know that I'm in a dream, but still dreaming of me dreaming.

What could the listener do as to not experience the illusion, just for a test? Like I said before, the idea of speakers disappearing, in my book, is a typical advertizing claim of no further merit. It may sound a bit cruel, I know that, but that's what science is about. Replace cosy illusions with cold factual knowledge.

 

[Sokel]

Would you agree that getting into the illusion takes some effort on the listener's side? If it is so, what kind of an illusion is it? I mean to know that I'm in a dream, but still dreaming of me dreaming.

What could the listener do as to not experience the illusion, just for a test? Like I said before, the idea of speakers disappearing, in my book, is a typical advertizing claim of no further merit. It may sound a bit cruel, I know that, but that's what science is about. Replace cosy illusions with cold factual knowledge.

Stereo illusion is one thing,disappearing is a whole other.
How many times have you entered a hall with music playing without knowing where the speakers are?