Puzzled by the difference in sound between coaxial and optical connections

[Rja4000]

Hi guys.
I put the same flac file on two USB drives, one in the TV, the other in the IFI streamer, played them both switching the source by amp remote back and forth between the optical and coaxial and… I was wrong, as many of you have already thought and mentioned. Listening through my speakers I cannot objectively discern between the sources.
So it wasn’t the TV distorting things, it was me and I apologize. Thanks for taking your time to reply me!

Nice to read this.
I, personally, highly appreciate your honest update here.

 

[brjoon1021]

It's hard to believe lossy music through one set of hardware sounds different to lossless music through a different set!

Actually if you believe the measurement only fanboys, yes it would be hard to believe they sound different as:

1. According to double blind testing of kidnapped bowling alleys listening to crappy popular music they have never heard before on systems they are not familiar with in rented office spaces: you nor anyone else can hear the difference between an mp3 of good quality (youtube) vs redbook / hi-res streaming source unless the mastering is so different to render the sources obviously different and thus a matter of subjective preference.

2. Secondly, streamers unless malfunctioning should sound the same, as you will find in these reviews, (paraphrastic license) " this and every other infinitesimal difference in measurements seen in this review is so far beyond your crappy hearing that you really have no reason reading this review beyond getting an assurance that the tested unit was not malfunctioning."

... so...

It is a fallacy that one could hear any difference between two different streamers as long as they both measure within a pretty broad range of specs playing two different indiscernible source contents.
Must be in your head. You could be a crazy audiophile. Go out back, shoot and bury your unicorn and look for some used Akai gear from the 90's which is cheap and measured great. Find some speakers that are +/- 2db and you have a world class sounding system.

 

[antcollinet]

Actually if you believe the measurement only fanboys, yes it would be hard to believe they sound different as:

1. According to double blind testing of kidnapped bowling alleys listening to crappy popular music they have never heard before on systems they are not familiar with in rented office spaces: you nor anyone else can hear the difference between an mp3 of good quality (youtube) vs redbook / hi-res streaming source unless the mastering is so different to render the sources obviously different and thus a matter of subjective preference.

2. Secondly, streamers unless malfunctioning should sound the same, as you will find in these reviews, (paraphrastic license) " this and every other infinitesimal difference in measurements seen in this review is so far beyond your crappy hearing that you really have no reason reading this review beyond getting an assurance that the tested unit was not malfunctioning."

... so...

It is a fallacy that one could hear any difference between two different streamers as long as they both measure within a pretty broad range of specs playing two different indiscernible source contents.
Must be in your head. You could be a crazy audiophile. Go out back, shoot and bury your unicorn and look for some used Akai gear from the 90's which is cheap and measured great. Find some speakers that are +/- 2db and you have a world class sounding system.

Wow - so many straw men in one post.

And with so much disdain for what goes on here, why have you stayed for nearly 3 years and a grand 5 posts?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Actually if you believe the measurement only fanboys, yes it would be hard to believe they sound different as:

1. According to double blind testing of kidnapped bowling alleys listening to crappy popular music they have never heard before on systems they are not familiar with in rented office spaces: you nor anyone else can hear the difference between an mp3 of good quality (youtube) vs redbook / hi-res streaming source unless the mastering is so different to render the sources obviously different and thus a matter of subjective preference.

2. Secondly, streamers unless malfunctioning should sound the same, as you will find in these reviews, (paraphrastic license) " this and every other infinitesimal difference in measurements seen in this review is so far beyond your crappy hearing that you really have no reason reading this review beyond getting an assurance that the tested unit was not malfunctioning."

... so...

It is a fallacy that one could hear any difference between two different streamers as long as they both measure within a pretty broad range of specs playing two different indiscernible source contents.
Must be in your head. You could be a crazy audiophile. Go out back, shoot and bury your unicorn and look for some used Akai gear from the 90's which is cheap and measured great. Find some speakers that are +/- 2db and you have a world class sounding system.

I'm confused whether you want a hug or some Akai gear from the nineties..

 

[brjoon1021]

Wow - so many straw men in one post.

And with so much disdain for what goes on here, why have you stayed for nearly 3 years and a grand 5 posts?

This site is just one of the poles, and of little worth, in this pursuit. The polar opposite of those that talk about lobster bisque or "caramely" when reviewing digital cables and take no measurements. I chuckle and move on from both extremes to more valuable content. You've found your tribe. enjoy

 

[voodooless]

This site is just one of the poles, and of little worth, in this pursuit. The polar opposite of those that talk about lobster bisque or "caramely" when reviewing digital cables and take no measurements. I chuckle and move on from both extremes to more valuable content. You've found your tribe. enjoy

Good luck in the staw fields

 

[ahofer]

double blind testing of kidnapped bowling alleys listening to crappy popular music they have never heard before on systems they are not familiar with in rented office spaces

This is a pretty poor description of the blind testing that has been done. The Stereo Review test and the matrix audio club come to mind. But there are lots more.

My general reaction to this comment is “tell me you’ve never really read or engaged with the evidence without *saying* you never engaged with the evidence”.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

This site is just one of the poles, and of little worth, in this pursuit. The polar opposite of those that talk about lobster bisque or "caramely" when reviewing digital cables and take no measurements. I chuckle and move on from both extremes to more valuable content. You've found your tribe. enjoy

Where do you go for this more valuable content? -Actually a serious question.

 

[brjoon1021]

Hi,
I take stereophile, The absolute Sound, Part time audiophile, iiwi youtube channel, Hans Beekhuyzen youtube channel (sp ?), GR research youtube channel (a fave over here, I think) and Steve Huff youtube channel all with a grain of salt or two (all of those are more prone to emote about power cables and audiophile USB wires and such than I am willing to swallow, probably because I have a little electronics background) and I look around here to make sure there is no horrible engineering flub with a product.

Sorry it took a bit to get back to you, but you are probably just bating me anyway(a tactic here). I wasn't that anxious to get back here to read the comments of the high-horse rationalists/"scientifists" disdaining from atop Mars Hill. You guys could be more charitable. The snowflakes say, "those guys who only believe in measurements... cool... that is cool for them, it takes all kinds to fill the freeways" and move on... I see some dickish / churlish stuff from your side though. I don't have disdain for what you do here as was suggested above, but I do have disdain for the insistence, by some, that if it can't be or is not quantified by the tests you run then it is a fantasy or the result of a sound pressure mismatch (that probably is true some of the time, actually...)

There is no blind or double blind test that is worth a sh*t (in my opinion) other than you listening to something you KNOOOW and (probably need to love) on your system that has been stable for whatever duration would be long enough for you to KNOW what particular music pieces sound like on IT. The imaging, the soundstage and really subtle details. It also matters that the music even has these things. I am not talking about techno, hip-hop or most radio stuff. Songs that have acoustic insturments, well recorded vocals, even some rock like the ones I mention below...then you can hear subtle changes like streamers, DACs, amps, preamps even cables - if you know the music intimately on YOUR system. Speakers are of course a gross change anyone could hear at any time, even a kidnapped bowling alley in one of those stupid tests, but I mean the subtle things... those are not going to be able to be tested like that.

I used to buy and sell stereo gear because I love music and stereo and because it allowed me to be on a constant upgrade path while making money. I had a good system. A local dealer was retiring but still had access to some inventory. He wanted to sell me some speakers and expensive cables. I was interested in listening to the speakers, but I humored him about the cables because anyone knows that is horsesh*t. They are just wires.
Well... He put in a whole set of Cardas inteconnects and speaker cables (the ridiculous expensive ones) that were probably more expensive than my CD player, pre-amp, amp and speakers. Much to my dismay and disappointment, the sound was better in several ways. I am still disappointed by this as I am too cheap to spend much on cables. I was able to hear the difference because I had a treated room, I measured the sweet spot location of the seat and speakers with a laser. (yep, nerd). I did not move or touch anything or change components at that point for nearly a year. So when I would put on Dark side of the moon (The import Harvest CD, great!) or Rumours (the german mastered one) or some Bach CDs that were well recorded I knew EXACTLY what every second sounded like and the imaging and soundstage were like muscle memory as I had listened to them so many times sitting in exactly the same spot in exactly the same room with the same equipment. The cable change was obvious, probably equivalent to CD player change or maybe even amp change. Not as much as pre-amp. Anyway... they would consider all of this BS here unless one takes pedestrians from the mall and performs "the very good Stereo Review" test. Anyway, we all have to decide for ourselves what we hear and what is BS. I assume that is a journey. I like to think I am in the sane middle. Whatever that means.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Hi,
I take stereophile, The absolute Sound, Part time audiophile, iiwi youtube channel, Hans Beekhuyzen youtube channel (sp ?), GR research youtube channel (a fave over here, I think) and Steve Huff youtube channel all with a grain of salt or two (all of those are more prone to emote about power cables and audiophile USB wires and such than I am willing to swallow, probably because I have a little electronics background) and I look around here to make sure there is no horrible engineering flub with a product.

Sorry it took a bit to get back to you, but you are probably just bating me anyway(a tactic here). I wasn't that anxious to get back here to read the comments of the high-horse rationalists/"scientifists" disdaining from atop Mars Hill. There is no test that is worth a sh*t other than you listening to something you KNOW and (probably need to love) on your system that has been stable for whatever duration would be long enough for you to KNOW what particular music pieces sound like on IT. The imaging, the soundstage and really subtle details. It also matters that the music even has these things. I am not talking about techno, hip-hop or most radio stuff. Songs that have acoustic insturments, well recorded vocals, even some rock like the ones I mention below...then you can hear subtle changes like streamers, DACs, amps, preamps even cables - if you know the music intimately on YOUR system. Speakers are of course a gross change anyone could hear at any time, even a kidnapped bowling alley in one of those stupid tests, but I mean the subtle things... those are not going to be able to be tested like that.

I used to buy and sell stereo gear because I love music and stereo and because it allowed me to be on a constant upgrade path while making money. I had a good system. A local dealer was retiring but still had access to some inventory. He wanted to sell me some speakers and expensive cables. I was interested in listening to the speakers, but I humored him about the cables because anyone knows that is horsesh*t. They are just wires.
Well... He put in a whole set of Cardas inteconnects and speaker cables that were probably more expensive than my CD player, pre-amp, amp and speakers. Much to my dismay and disappointment, the sound was better in several ways. I am still disappointed by this as I am too cheap to spend much on cables. I was able to hear the difference because I had a treated room, I measured the sweet spot location of the seat and speakers with a laser. (yep, nerd). I did not move or touch anything or change components at that point for nearly a year. So when I would put on Dark side of the moon (The import Harvest CD, great!) or Rumours (the german mastered one) or some Bach CDs that were well recorded I knew EXACTLY what every second sounded like and the imaging and soundstage were like muscle memory as I had listened to them so many times sitting in exactly the same spot in exactly the same room with the same equipment. The cable change was obvious, probably equivalent to CD player change or maybe even amp change. Not as much as pre-amp. Anyway... they would consider all of this BS here unless one takes pedestrians from the mall and performs "the very good Stereo Review" test. Anyway, we all have to decide for ourselves what we hear and what is BS. I assume that is a journey. I like to think I am in the sane middle. Whatever that means.

Actually I wasn't baiting you.
I follow this forum, Audiokarma, AVS, DIYaudio.
I don't know of any other more reputable sources than the sum of these.

 

[brjoon1021]

Sorry for making that suggestion then. I apologize.

I like the DIYaudio too. I wish I was more handy. A friend really really digs Jazz. blue note jazz records. He has hundreds of them some really valuable. He made his own tube amp which he runs through some re-done altec Lansing, I think horn speakers. It is another world. It sounds like a japanese kissa bar. If you can find vinyl > tubes > horns you should at least get it under your belt as an experience as far as this hobby goes, I think.

Steve Guttenberg Audiophiliac is a good source too.

 

[ahofer]

There is no blind or double blind test that is worth a sh*t (in my opinion) other than you listening to something you KNOOOW and (probably need to love) on your system that has been stable for whatever duration would be long enough for you to KNOW what particular music pieces sound like on IT

I knew EXACTLY what every second sounded like and the imaging and soundstage were like muscle memory as I had listened to them so many times sitting in exactly the same spot in exactly the same room with the same equipment.

Your assertion regarding one's ability to recall the sound of one's own system with specific recordings is at odds with what we know about auditory memory, and your cable comparison ignores the potential effects of confirmation/expectation/framing bias. That's why I (and I suspect many others) don't accept these types of assertions at face value. It's not personal.

 

[Tim Link]

The cable change was obvious,

I've disconnected and reconnected the same cables and the change seemed obvious to me. I can only surmise that by disconnecting and reconnecting the cables I had re-established some contacts that were getting weak. Did you change the cables back and forth more than once to make the comparison? That would eliminate the possibility that the perceived improvement was from re-seating all the contacts.

 

[Tim Link]

Your assertion regarding one's ability to recall the sound of one's own system with specific recordings is at odds with what we know about auditory memory, and your cable comparison ignores the potential effects of confirmation/expectation/framing bias. That's why I (and I suspect many others) don't accept these types of assertions at face value. It's not personal.

Obviously there are some things we can recall by auditory memory. It would depend on what changed when the cables were swapped. I would assert with confidence that any change that could be reliably noticed from auditory memory of the previous sound would also be easily measurable, if someone had bothered to measure. A recent experience I has was with comparing various amplifiers, all hooked up using the same cables and sources. One of them stood out as sounding different, so I got the measurement mic. out to see if anything showed up. Sure enough, that amp produced a different frequency response with my speakers. I perceived it as slightly rolled off highs. Turned out it was a complex mix of middle high frequencies around 3k being slightly lower - about 1 dB, while up above 10k there was actually more output, as much as 3 dB. I don't hear all that well above 10k, but it can make a subtle and important difference even to my ears. I tried to EQ the other amp to sound the same. I did not succeed in that attempt, but now that I know how to use REW to calculate EQ settings to match a target I could probably do it.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Of course I can remember how my system used to sound without EQ or room correction for example. I have tweaked my room curve many times to get to the point it sounds satisfactory every time I listen. And we're talking about adjustments of down to 1 dB.
Let's not make objectivity cloud judgement and make our brains dumber than they are..

We have three cars. If you sat me in each blind folded and played a track I know, I would be able to tell which one I was in with 100 % certainty all the time. And I only drive one of them daily.

 

[brjoon1021]

Holdt,
yeees. But I'm sure someone will have a response for why you couldn't possibly do so or an inane reason why your being able to has nothing to do with the horrid capacities of the poor, poor, poor human ear/ brain interaction I'm not going to bother responding to any discussions like this any longer.

But to the person that asked which sources I thought were better than audio science review, and they are many I don't think this is very helpful place to go other than to make sure something wasn't engineered by a moron...

Paul McGowan PS audio YouTube channel is helpful.


Darko audio

Steve guttenberg audioaphiliac

 

[BDWoody]

I chuckle and move on from both extremes to more valuable content. You've found your tribe. enjoy

This site is just one of the poles, and of little worth, in this pursuit.

Ok, no need to continue wasting any more of your time is there.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Holdt,
yeees. But I'm sure someone will have a response for why you couldn't possibly do so or an inane reason why your being able to has nothing to do with the horrid capacities of the poor, poor, poor human ear/ brain interaction I'm not going to bother responding to any discussions like this any longer.

But to the person that asked which sources I thought were better than audio science review, and they are many I don't think this is very helpful place to go other than to make sure something wasn't engineered by a moron...

Paul McGowan PS audio YouTube channel is helpful.


Darko audio

Steve guttenberg audioaphiliac

I wouldn't go as far to critisize ASR as harshly as you. I happen to think that it's the best source of HiFi information there is. I've learnt a lot after I discovered it. Most people are nice, some aren't. Sometimes things are lost in translation as well. Sometimes the language used reflects the concrete 1:1 objectivity of engineers which can be off putting if you're not used to that.

 

[Ricardus]

Holdt,
yeees. But I'm sure someone will have a response for why you couldn't possibly do so or an inane reason why your being able to has nothing to do with the horrid capacities of the poor, poor, poor human ear/ brain interaction I'm not going to bother responding to any discussions like this any longer.

But to the person that asked which sources I thought were better than audio science review, and they are many I don't think this is very helpful place to go other than to make sure something wasn't engineered by a moron...

Paul McGowan PS audio YouTube channel is helpful.

He literally lies every day in his videos.

Another bogus account?

 

[antcollinet]

He literally lies every day in his videos.

Another bogus account?

A sleeper if it is.