Problems with mixing pre-out and amplification?

[Evenor]

Hi,

I'm looking to expand my stereo focused setup to surround and my initial idea was to use pre-out for front channels and internal amp for surround channels. Then later maybe look to add a center channel. One possible solution I found was Marantz SR1510 but when looking for reviews I found some posts about pre-out having problems in these models because the internal amp doesn't get deactivated. Is the problem so big I should rather look at just using the receiver for all the channels and something like Denon 2700h instead?

The amplifier I use for stereo is an NCore 250w stereo amplifier and I don't close to push it to its limits in terms of volume/power.

 

[Scubaduderon]

The Dennon AVR's have similar problems, unless you go to using them as a processor and another get another amp to power your speakers. I have a similar more complex thread going and am getting zero help from anyone, so I'm muddling through as best I can. There is a nice post attempting to help one to decide amongst the X3700H, X4700H and the X6700H, and you might want to look it up, but it still left me with questions.

 

[Chrispy]

Few avrs actually disconnect the amps when using pre-outs, especially when using both internal/external amps. I wouldn't worry about it particularly, tho. Biggest problem with the 1510 is with its slimline design is simply limited.

 

[Evenor]

The Dennon AVR's have similar problems, unless you go to using them as a processor and another get another amp to power your speakers. I have a similar more complex thread going and am getting zero help from anyone, so I'm muddling through as best I can. There is a nice post attempting to help one to decide amongst the X3700H, X4700H and the X6700H, and you might want to look it up, but it still left me with questions.

Your setup is quite complex so it should be difficult to give straightforward answers. Good luck

I started reading the thread you mentioned from the start today and there is ton of good information in there. This forum is a gold mine and it could have saved me a bunch if I found it from the start. Using the information here truly leads to great end results.

 

[Evenor]

Few avrs actually disconnect the amps when using pre-outs, especially when using both internal/external amps. I wouldn't worry about it particularly, tho. Biggest problem with the 1510 is with its slimline design is simply limited.

Thank you for the comment! So it's best to avoid slimline to avoid heating? The amplifier looks too weak for driving 5 channels but maybe fine for three? Maybe better to look for a more powerful amplifier and have the option for a 5.1.2 atmos setup down the line... No straightforward answers I guess and there is of course sacrifices at 450$ price point.

The cheapest denon with pre out starts at around 1100$ so I'll have to sacrifice that or increase the budget if I go for denon.

 

[Chrispy]

Thank you for the comment! So it's best to avoid slimline to avoid heating? The amplifier looks too weak for driving 5 channels but maybe fine for three? Maybe better to look for a more powerful amplifier and have the option for a 5.1.2 atmos setup down the line... No straightforward answers I guess and there is of course sacrifices at 450$ price point.

The cheapest denon with pre out starts at around 1100$ so I'll have to sacrifice that or increase the budget if I go for denon.

I say limited as it's limited in channel count, amp power, pre-outs (only L/R and sub), and has the weakest version of Audyssey (just MultEQ). I wouldn't worry about heat particularly, and adding external cooling for an avr that does run warm or is in a constricted space is the way I go. The form factor can be helpful I suppose for some, tho. Have you looked at accessories4less.com?

 

[Evenor]

Thanks for the suggestion but I don't think it's an option for me as I live in Europe, and have just been converting prices by dividing the local currency price by FX and tax. The used market is pretty decent so should look into that though.

Ok, cool. It's definitely only an option for a 5.1 setup and not 7.1 or a full atmos type one. At the moment I've got two spare speakers and no subs or center speaker so it'll take some time to just get to full 5.1. Spending over 1k on the receiver alone will most likely prolong that time but maybe the way to go if I'll have it for 15 years or something.

Do you know any places people post pictures of setups (wondering about how to integrate in the room)? How much does side channels or hight channels add? Adding in surround channels is a pretty large difference but is there a sweet spot where you get like 90%-95% of the benefits? The last few I'd probably have to pay hundreds of cinema tickets for

 

[Chrispy]

Might somewhat depend on size of room, willingness to put speakers in your ceiling, etc. I think you get most of it in a 5ch system, altho in a bigger room I do like 7ch. Not much 7ch content out there, and I'm not wanting to dig into ceiling, but if I did I'd go with 4 speakers for Atmos. I've tried 9ch with front wides in my main setup but don't think it was beneficial in my longer than wider room. I use 5ch in my smaller rooms, 7ch in two others.

Don't know that any particular forum has lots of pics to consider. Have you looked at Dolby guidelines for speaker placement?

 

[Evenor]

I looked more into the Dolby setups and found some discussions about the difference between speaker setups from Audioholics. They pretty much said the same as you (i.e. that a well setup 5.1 is going to give close to all the benefits), so I'll aim at 5.1 without atmos.

The small Marantz receivers are starting to look more like a bad idea to the more I learn so the main options will be a Denon receiver or just a USB sound card with surround. The Denon X1600h (no pre out) or X3600h for receivers. The USB sound cards gets a higher SINAD for front L/R in reviews here that's similar or higher than the new Denon receiver's pre-out but uses cheaper DAC chips for the other channels. There is also no HDMI or DD+ support.

Do you know if the good old AC3 dolby digital standard runs into compression problems like in 128 kbps or lower 2ch mp3? From what I understand you really want at least 96-128 kbps pr channel. Most of my sources gives at least 640 kbps DD+ 5.1 which supposedly is close to 6 mbps wav according to... marketing

 

[peng]

I looked more into the Dolby setups and found some discussions about the difference between speaker setups from Audioholics. They pretty much said the same as you (i.e. that a well setup 5.1 is going to give close to all the benefits), so I'll aim at 5.1 without atmos.

The small Marantz receivers are starting to look more like a bad idea to the more I learn so the main options will be a Denon receiver or just a USB sound card with surround. The Denon X1600h (no pre out) or X3600h for receivers. The USB sound cards gets a higher SINAD for front L/R in reviews here that's similar or higher than the new Denon receiver's pre-out but uses cheaper DAC chips for the other channels. There is also no HDMI or DD+ support.

Do you know if the good old AC3 dolby digital standard runs into compression problems like in 128 kbps or lower 2ch mp3? From what I understand you really want at least 96-128 kbps pr channel. Most of my sources gives at least 640 kbps DD+ 5.1 which supposedly is close to 6 mbps wav according to... marketing

Have you taken the first and most important step to figure out your power requirements yet? Once you have that information, you should be ready to come up with a short list of which AVRs, or AVR/AVP+power amp.

 

[Evenor]

My power requirements are on the low end with a smaller room and won't be listening to full cinema reference levels. I will start with a basic setup of 4 bookshelf smaller speakers and develop it to 5.2 over 1-2 years. I'm likely going to be using B&W 600 series peakers and then a sub from another brand. The main wish for pre-out is due to quality reasons and not the quantity of amplification. I went from a mediocre budget class A/B amp to an NCore 252 earlier this year and the difference is very noticeable, so I assume these receivers will be performing similar to the old power amp and be a noticeable downgrade to the NCore one.

 

[peng]

My power requirements are on the low end with a smaller room and won't be listening to full cinema reference levels. I will start with a basic setup of 4 bookshelf smaller speakers and develop it to 5.2 over 1-2 years. I'm likely going to be using B&W 600 series peakers and then a sub from another brand. The main wish for pre-out is due to quality reasons and not the quantity of amplification. I went from a mediocre budget class A/B amp to an NCore 252 earlier this year and the difference is very noticeable, so I assume these receivers will be performing similar to the old power amp and be a noticeable downgrade to the NCore one.

If your power requirement is on the low side, something like the AVR-X4700H may be all you need because you can't benefit from the additional power from the Ncore amp, but you know that already.

In terms of "sound quality" I highly doubt you could actually hear the better SINAD of the NCore amp. Which one do you have? If it is the ATI amp, the AT522NC, then I can't see much of a difference even on paper. Keep in mind unless you don't know which one you were listening to, the "very noticeable difference" may not matter as it would likely be not real. That is not my just my opinion based on my own experience, but also the opinion of some experts in the field.

If you have one of those Purifi or Hypex amps, I still doubt you can hear the difference between 85 dB and 105 dB SINAD. 20 dB difference is huge, but if you room even have a very low noise floor like 20 dB, even -75 dB THD+N will be well below the noise floor anyway if you listen to below reference level. So since you have a NCore amp (just 2 channel right?), I think to keep things simple, just pair it with a X4700H or X3700H and use it to drive the other 3 channels.

 

[Evenor]

Hypex Ncore NC252MP is the module and it's an audiophonics assembly. My old amp was far from perfect. What I hear is much lower distortion and better bass performance. The difference is very noticeable but these surround receivers might very well be much better than what I had before.

 

[peng]

Hypex Ncore NC252MP is the module and it's an audiophonics assembly. My old amp was far from perfect. What I hear is much lower distortion and better bass performance. The difference is very noticeable but these surround receivers might very well be much better than what I had before.

I would like to search for the specs and measurements of your old amp. Would you mind sharing the model number? Thanks.

 

[Evenor]

I would like to search for the specs and measurements of your old amp. Would you mind sharing the model number? Thanks.

Parasound z amp v 3. It's been reviewed here (ASR Review) and does have power noise problems which can partly be mitigated with mains filter.

When I say lower distortion I mean the sound doesn't feel very loud/uncomfortable even at higher volumes and there is no sharpness or unpleasantness. The bass is noticeably tighter or something.

"I went from a mediocre budget class A/B amp to an NCore 252 earlier this year and the difference is very noticeable, so I assume these receivers will be performing similar to the old power amp and be a noticeable downgrade to the NCore one. "

Maybe this assumption is very wrong and the Denon's are MUCH better??? For DACs I think I can notice the difference between 110 SINAD and less than 90, but when comparing 110 to 100 I don't think I can. Where do we approach transparency or diminishing returns?

 

[Chrispy]

I looked more into the Dolby setups and found some discussions about the difference between speaker setups from Audioholics. They pretty much said the same as you (i.e. that a well setup 5.1 is going to give close to all the benefits), so I'll aim at 5.1 without atmos.

The small Marantz receivers are starting to look more like a bad idea to the more I learn so the main options will be a Denon receiver or just a USB sound card with surround. The Denon X1600h (no pre out) or X3600h for receivers. The USB sound cards gets a higher SINAD for front L/R in reviews here that's similar or higher than the new Denon receiver's pre-out but uses cheaper DAC chips for the other channels. There is also no HDMI or DD+ support.

Do you know if the good old AC3 dolby digital standard runs into compression problems like in 128 kbps or lower 2ch mp3? From what I understand you really want at least 96-128 kbps pr channel. Most of my sources gives at least 640 kbps DD+ 5.1 which supposedly is close to 6 mbps wav according to... marketing

How does a sound card with surround compete with an avr? I'd much rather have an avr....and one with the better version of Audyssey and pre-outs that only come with the Denon 3xxx and up models. I generally want mp3 stereo to be at least 256kbps, and usually use 320 if not a lossless FLAC file instead. Multich DD+ works well on streaming services IMO.

Why B&W 600 series speakers....that's one series I see a fair number of complaints about. I've heard a couple and wasn't impressed myself. Not their best efforts....

 

[peng]

Parasound z amp v 3. It's been reviewed here (ASR Review) and does have power noise problems which can partly be mitigated with mains filter.

When I say lower distortion I mean the sound doesn't feel very loud/uncomfortable even at higher volumes and there is no sharpness or unpleasantness. The bass is noticeably tighter or something.

"I went from a mediocre budget class A/B amp to an NCore 252 earlier this year and the difference is very noticeable, so I assume these receivers will be performing similar to the old power amp and be a noticeable downgrade to the NCore one. "

Maybe this assumption is very wrong and the Denon's are MUCH better??? For DACs I think I can notice the difference between 110 SINAD and less than 90, but when comparing 110 to 100 I don't think I can. Where do we approach transparency or diminishing returns?

The reviewed Z amp being your old amp, I can understand why you noticed a difference upgrading to the Ncore. The internal amps of the Denon and Marantz AVRs no doubt are downgrades from the Ncore, but I think it is unlikely the difference would be audible in a blind comparison listening test when you don't know which one is in use.

 

[Evenor]

How does a sound card with surround compete with an avr? I'd much rather have an avr....and one with the better version of Audyssey and pre-outs that only come with the Denon 3xxx and up models. I generally want mp3 stereo to be at least 256kbps, and usually use 320 if not a lossless FLAC file instead. Multich DD+ works well on streaming services IMO.

That's similar to my experience and makes sense. The Denon X3700h absolutely looks like a sweet spot in terms of value without getting too high of a price. The main allure of the sound card would be to have a working but not perfect solution until I can afford a full 5.1 or 5.2 setup and a good receiver.

Why B&W 600 series speakers....that's one series I see a fair number of complaints about. I've heard a couple and wasn't impressed myself. Not their best efforts....

I found the treble and mid-range to be quite good in the 2019 models and voices/singing sounded great. It's definitely not set in stone so any recommendations are welcome. There are many good hi-fi stores in the area and a lot of speaker brands to choose from.

 

[Evenor]

The reviewed Z amp being your old amp, I can understand why you noticed a difference upgrading to the Ncore. The internal amps of the Denon and Marantz AVRs no doubt are downgrades from the Ncore, but I think it is unlikely the difference would be audible in a blind comparison listening test when you don't know which one is in use.

That makes sense. I've auditioned a speaker once where we changed the amps because of some harshness and went from a 600$ amp to a 20k one. While the difference was significant and removed all harshness, the speaker still sounded similar but just cleaner.

The Denon X3700h is rated at 105 W into 8 ohms with two channels driven. Power no problem when driving 5 modern speakers? 2x 105 W power in my room at the moment is really loud. Are there any considerations when we distribute that power to 5 speakers.

 

[Chrispy]

That makes sense. I've auditioned a speaker once where we changed the amps because of some harshness and went from a 600$ amp to a 20k one. While the difference was significant and removed all harshness, the speaker still sounded similar but just cleaner.

But with a sighted test knowing price....how much of that difference is your bias?