Pre-amp DAC help

[Bassman999]

I have used a Denon receiver for years. but now I am buying some nicer amp(s) and need a preamp.
Suppose could just use the Denon as a preamp, but I feel that might lessen or defeat the benefit from the NCx500 amps?
Anyway its confusing to me when looking at DACs and pre-amps.
I have a very limited budget to buy both pre and amps.
So wondering if any of these will be good enough...
Topping E70
SMSL DO200 MKII
SMSL HO200

I dont understand needing a DAC and a preamp if the DAC has inputs, outputs, and a volume knob?

 

[staticV3]

A DAC with volume control can be plugged directly into a power amp and be used that way.

The danger is in that one accidental knock of the knob, or accidentally setting the DAC from Pre mode to DAC mode, or just a bug in the DAC's firmware can send the full output power of your Amp into your speakers.

This can and has destroyed speakers before.

Therefore, it is generally recommended to put an additional, analog volume control between the DAC and the Amp.

You can use it as a volume limiter, so that even if you set the DAC to 100% (by accident or not), the analog preamp will limit volume and protect your speakers.

 

[Bassman999]

A DAC with volume control can be plugged directly into a power amp and be used that way.

The danger is in that one accidental knock of the knob, or accidentally setting the DAC from Pre mode to DAC mode, or just a bug in the DAC's firmware can send the full output power of your Amp into your speakers.

This can and has destroyed speakers before.

Therefore, it is generally recommended to put an additional, analog volume control between the DAC and the Amp.

You can use it as a volume limiter, so that even if you set the DAC to 100% (by accident or not), the analog preamp will limit volume and protect your speakers.

Will there be a lesser output potential from the DAC to amp compared to a real preamp?
I dont know if there are gain differences or different output voltages that might not be the same.

If I had a DAC and a pre-amp then where do I set DAC volume, and does that have higher potential volume, and lower noise floor?

 

[staticV3]

Traditional Preamps can apply both positive and negative gain, so a DAC+External Preamp can generally output higher voltage than just the DAC alone.

Noise has become kind of a moot point by now.
DACs have so little noise nowadays, that the advantage that analog attenuation can bring, will be completely negated by ambient noise, or amplifier noise.

If I had a DAC and a pre-amp then where do I set DAC volume

I would set the preamp volume such that 100% DAC volume is as loud as I ever want to play.
Then I would leave the pre where it is and only use the DAC's volume control, because it's usually more convenient.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

If your DAC is able to drive the power amp to be louder than you need, you could use a passive attenuator (sometimes called a passive preamplifier). These can be fairly inexpensive. They are best suited to short cable lengths and can (with some kit), reduce high frequencies a bit.

Here's an example https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ak-rc-11-review-passive-volume-control.34584/

 

[Bassman999]

Traditional Preamps can apply both positive and negative gain, so a DAC+External Preamp can generally output higher voltage than just the DAC alone.

Noise has become kind of a moot point by now.
DACs have so little noise nowadays, that the advantage that analog attenuation can bring, will be completely negated by ambient noise, or amplifier noise.


I would set the preamp volume such that 100% DAC volume is as loud as I ever want to play.
Then I would leave the pre where it is and only use the DAC's volume control, because it's usually more convenient.

Thank you
I remember people always saying the more components in the line the more introduced distortion.
Maybe not as much of an issue with newer high end components tho.

If your DAC is able to drive the power amp to be louder than you need, you could use a passive attenuator (sometimes called a passive preamplifier). These can be fairly inexpensive. They are best suited to short cable lengths and can (with some kit), reduce high frequencies a bit.

Here's an example https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ak-rc-11-review-passive-volume-control.34584/

Cool!
Might do that to save till I can get all the pieces

 

[Bassman999]

SMSL DO200 MKII vs Topping ES9028PRO?
These are in my price range, the prior is on sale at Amazon

 

[Bassman999]

Ended up with a Topping E70 and a VTV NCx500
Have a few Speaker builds in the works, but till then Ill be running an old project off this setup.
Silver Flute 6.5" 4 ohm and the Dayton RS29F-4 (the real ones)

 

[Sokel]

Ended up with a Topping E70 and a VTV NCx500
Have a few Speaker builds in the works, but till then Ill be running an old project off this setup.
Silver Flute 6.5" 4 ohm and the Dayton RS29F-4 (the real ones)

Make sure to add that analog VC friends here advised you to,cause:

Topping E70 randomly went to MAX volume..

Not sure what happened but all the sudden the E70 went from -30db or so to 0db. Basically blew out my ears for a few seconds and it was stuck on 0db, I couldn't even lower it. Tried spinning the volume control on the E70 for a few seconds, it was locked at 0db. Afraid to put my windows volume...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Rare,but it happens,you don't want your ears and gear blown sky-high.

 

[Bassman999]

Make sure to add that analog VC friends here advised you to,cause:

Topping E70 randomly went to MAX volume..

Not sure what happened but all the sudden the E70 went from -30db or so to 0db. Basically blew out my ears for a few seconds and it was stuck on 0db, I couldn't even lower it. Tried spinning the volume control on the E70 for a few seconds, it was locked at 0db. Afraid to put my windows volume...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Rare,but it happens,you don't want your ears and gear blown sky-high.

The E70 does have an analog volume knob on it, I need an additional safeguard beyond that?
Are we talking something like a Niles SVL-1?
I can get one of those really cheap

 

[Jimbob54]

The E70 does have an analog volume knob on it,

It has a volume knob- it aint analog.

 

[Willem]

A DAC with volume control can be plugged directly into a power amp and be used that way.

The danger is in that one accidental knock of the knob, or accidentally setting the DAC from Pre mode to DAC mode, or just a bug in the DAC's firmware can send the full output power of your Amp into your speakers.

This can and has destroyed speakers before.

Therefore, it is generally recommended to put an additional, analog volume control between the DAC and the Amp.

You can use it as a volume limiter, so that even if you set the DAC to 100% (by accident or not), the analog preamp will limit volume and protect your speakers.

The risk is really no different from the old days with just a preamp with volume control. Did we ever worry then? I happily use a RME ADI-2 DAC as my preamp. In fact, such DACs really are are the modern incarnation of a preamp, only the inputs are digital instead of analogue.

 

[Sokel]

Are we talking something like a Niles SVL-1?
I can get one of those really cheap

The little I looked that's a speaker level control so no.
You'll need a line level one.

 

[Bassman999]

The little I looked that's a speaker level control so no.
You'll need a line level one.

Im afraid IDK the difference in speaker level and line level.
Is it the volume control range is limited in the niles?

EDIT
I see it has 60w max and a max 42db attenuation.
My amp has way more output potential than 60 watts.
I see the difference now
The Pac is only RCA based, but maybe theres one that uses xlr
I dont own the Niles and didnt realize it is speaker level input.

 

[Sokel]

Im afraid IDK the difference in speaker level and line level.
Is it the volume control range is limited in the niles?

Niles goes after the amps and before your speakers,you'll need something between you DAC and the amps,that's where the safeguard should be.

 

[Bassman999]

Niles goes after the amps and before your speakers,you'll need something between you DAC and the amps,that's where the safeguard should be.

Will this work?

Behringer Monitor1 Passive Stereo Monitor and Volume Controller

Passive Monitor and Volume Controller with Mono and Mute Functions

www.sweetwater.com

Amazon.com

 

[Sokel]

Will this work?

Behringer Monitor1 Passive Stereo Monitor and Volume Controller

Passive Monitor and Volume Controller with Mono and Mute Functions

www.sweetwater.com

Amazon.com

I can't advise you to this as I don't use passive.
But you can search here,some have been tested and there are some threads addressing the impedance issues that may occur with a passive one.
Hopefully some users will chime in to this.

 

[Ykar]

Will this work?

Behringer Monitor1 Passive Stereo Monitor and Volume Controller

Passive Monitor and Volume Controller with Mono and Mute Functions

www.sweetwater.com

Amazon.com

Spec sheet says :

• Input Impedance 10 kΩ balanced / 5 kΩ unbalanced
• Output Impedance 800 Ω

 

[Bassman999]

Spec sheet says :

• Input Impedance 10 kΩ balanced / 5 kΩ unbalanced
• Output Impedance 800 Ω

I see the difference in impedance, what will it change?

 

[Ykar]

To my understanding and experience, for the price, this is probably the cleanest thing you can insert to attenuate volume between fixed output dac and power amp. Supposed to be as clean as a wire. Since these are a several potentiometers physically coupled together with common axe, main risk is channel level mismatch at various attenuation levels, either because axe misalignment or more often, mismatched potentiometer characteristics