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Power amplifier tests with respect to FTC: 16 CFR Part 432 (July 5, 2024) requirements on output power claims

When an amp clips, it actually limits its output power when compared to when it doesn't clip (i.e. compared to an amp with much higher or unlimited output power). So, for music or signals with spectral power distributions similar to music, it is actually safer for the loudspeaker (which includes the tweeter) than if the amplifier can deliver the amplified signal unclipped. Rod Elliott wrote an detailed article explaining why. Below is a screen clip of part of part 6 of his article. Read the whole article for full details.
clipping_amp.png

 
So you have failed. The tones are equal amplitude across the frequency range and therefore totally unrepresentative of music.
I still don't know what point you are making. We know an amp that is clipping is not adequate.
What was the load, what was the power output? What are the two amps? What are their claimed output?
What two amps?Same amp (the headphone amp of the interface in that occasion),same measurement 5dB away,a typical clipping situation.
I ask again,are you familiar with measurements?

The test was based on suggestion of other members here,not to prove anything else than a falsely rated amp can mess things up,big time.
It's that easy.
My personal preference would be Pink Noise through an FSAF measurement as I showed earlier,couples of pages back.
 
When an amp clips, it actually limits its output power when compared to when it doesn't clip (i.e. compared to an amp with much higher or unlimited output power). So, for music or signals with spectral power distributions similar to music, it is actually safer for the loudspeaker (which includes the tweeter) than if the amplifier can deliver the amplified signal unclipped. Rod Elliott wrote an detailed article explaining why. Below is a screen clip of part of part 6 of his article. Read the whole article for full details.
View attachment 414832
That's true for limited output amps.But the usually falsely rated ones are not limited at all,they just clip low usually while their peaks are still there.
This has beaten to death in diyaudio.
In practice it's rare to see these all in one weak amp stuff with the attached speakers having working tweeters.
And even nicer stuff.
 
That's true for limited output amps.But the usually falsely rated ones are not limited at all,they just clip low usually while their peaks are still there.
This has beaten to death in diyaudio.
In practice it's rare to see these all in one weak amp stuff with the attached speakers having working tweeters.
And even nicer stuff.
That's sensible engineering in my book. Able to cover the occasional peaks and not over engineered for the sole purpose of meeting the artificial requirement from FTC.
 
That's sensible engineering in my book. Able to cover the occasional peaks and not over engineered for the sole purpose of meeting the artificial requirement from FTC.
I do not disagree.And sane use I would add.
Even more sensible are actives.There are companies for example making amps only for lows.And so on.

If one knows its needs it's not hard to find gear that meets them.
 
By definition clipping will occur at a peak in voltage output.In music peaks will be very high compared to the average level. This is why using sinexwaves to indicate real world performance is rather useless.
So,Amir's tests are useless?It's all sines,single or multi ones,along with some chirps.
I don't think so.
 
What does this response of yours have anything to do with my quote you are referencing? Hint: It doesn't.

You still haven't admitted I said nothing whatsoever about using white noise to test amplifiers.

Now you want to change the subject again and bring up pink noise? I've not mentioned pink noise either! LOL. :facepalm:

Stop deflecting. Provide evidence to support your claim that @amirm ”consistently” recommends equipment “they has failed en masse” or shut up.
 
When an amp clips, it actually limits its output power when compared to when it doesn't clip (i.e. compared to an amp with much higher or unlimited output power). So, for music or signals with spectral power distributions similar to music, it is actually safer for the loudspeaker (which includes the tweeter) than if the amplifier can deliver the amplified signal unclipped. Rod Elliott wrote an detailed article explaining why. Below is a screen clip of part of part 6 of his article. Read the whole article for full details.
...
When clipping occurs, it's a sudden waveform transition that creates HF energy not in the signal. This HF energy can kill tweeters. This is the origin of the notion that small amplifiers are more likely to kill tweeters than big ones.

Put differently: in most music the biggest amplitudes are in lowest frequencies. Speakers are designed for this - woofers can take a lot more power than tweeters. When an amp clips it throws a burst of high amplitude high frequencies at the speaker.
 
the clipping indicator which in Purifi's,Hypex's and icepower's modules at least is a damn led,modules have ready pins for it.Think about it.
Not to argue against your point, but clipping is indicated by pulling low on at least some of those amplifiers, which necessitates a transistor and a couple resistors and capacitors in addition to the LED. When I was as looking into being a hobbies level amp boxer in order to get the amp the would do exactly what I wanted and only that (and provide those amps to others with the same needs) it was little things like that that really ended up pushing the cost past what made it a reasonable thing to do.
 
When an amp clips, it actually limits its output power when compared to when it doesn't clip (i.e. compared to an amp with much higher or unlimited output power). So, for music or signals with spectral power distributions similar to music, it is actually safer for the loudspeaker (which includes the tweeter) than if the amplifier can deliver the amplified signal unclipped. Rod Elliott wrote an detailed article explaining why. Below is a screen clip of part of part 6 of his article. Read the whole article for full details.
View attachment 414832
Amplifiers clip differently though. Some don't even clip.
Here’s how I interpret this snippet: It assumes that the speakers and ears cannot handle the extra power, and the example seems somewhat extreme. If the amplifier is just at the clipping point with peaks, you wouldn’t necessarily need one that can provide an additional 12 (!) dB. It also presumes that the user didn’t notice the distortion and clipping before and would continue to turn up the volume with the new amplifier until the speaker burst into flames. :)
 
Not to argue against your point, but clipping is indicated by pulling low on at least some of those amplifiers, which necessitates a transistor and a couple resistors and capacitors in addition to the LED. When I was as looking into being a hobbies level amp boxer in order to get the amp the would do exactly what I wanted and only that (and provide those amps to others with the same needs) it was little things like that that really ended up pushing the cost past what made it a reasonable thing to do.
I won't argue cause I haven't look deep at Hypex and Purifi,but the icepowers I did clipping indicator only needs a led (with its appropriate resistor of course so to bright humanely ,not like having your own sun home like some I see around)

Can't be that hard for a company to do to others though.
 
When clipping occurs, it's a sudden waveform transition that creates HF energy not in the signal. This HF energy can kill tweeters. This is the origin of the notion that small amplifiers are more likely to kill tweeters than big ones.

Put differently: in most music the biggest amplitudes are in lowest frequencies. Speakers are designed for this - woofers can take a lot more power than tweeters. When an amp clips it throws a burst of high amplitude high frequencies at the speaker.

This is one of those long prevailing audio myths, I think because folks look at the FFT of a clipped sine wave and see that the harmonic content increases.
They then assume this harmonic content goes to the tweeter in destructive fashion.
But the fact is the harmonic content is so low in level, dB relative, that it adds little to the signal passing to the tweeter.

You can build a test rig to check this out with little more than a decent DMM. Get a crossover and load each side with dummy loads. (water heater elements are very cheap, and it's not hard to make 8 or 4 ohm loads)
Run a sine wave to the crossover at its crossover frequency, and measure the voltage outputs of both sides of the crossover.
Log them and their ratio, as you march the amp up in drive level and into clipping.
You'll know when clipping occurs by the fact voltage doesn't increase.
Note the ratio of the low side voltage to high side, barely changes if at all, clipping vs lower level.

Tweeters blow, not from a waveform transition making higher HF energy at clipping, but due to simply being over f...ing driven !!
 
It is not one single signal to include all frequencies, it is a misunderstanding. Again, direct quotation says

View attachment 414784
Rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies means when driven at individual frequencies. Make a representative set like 20Hz, 100Hz, 1kHz, 5kHz, 10kHz, 20kHz and test on single frequencies from this set and on each of them you have to keep the rated power for 5 minutes. Good thermal and circuit design will make it. If not, derate the advertised rated power. We are in circles. Pink noise is fun for the amp under test. White noise is easy to pass as well, provided there is no clipping. More later, maybe.
Okay, that's reasonable, but that's not what it says.

As a person who occasionally writes government policy, this statement would never have made it through my agency's good guidance review.

Your selection of test frequencies is a sampling, not a comprehensive test. What if an amp goes into oscillation at, say, 17,432 Hz? That would make the amp not meet the requirement, but the test you outlined would have missed it. (John's chirps might have found it.) Is that likely? No. But it's also not likely that anyone can describe any remotely realistic use case that would require a 20 KHz sine wave at full rated power for five minutes, when five seconds might be enough to fry any tweeters on the market.

I get the commitment to truth in advertising, but what I've learned is that the whole concept of power output (in watts) depends so much on surrounding operating conditions that it's just about meaningless for making a purchase decision. And making reasonable purchase decisions is the ONLY reason the FTC has any standing at all. The U.S. has an intentionally weak federal government, limited by authorities specifically authorized by Congress or specifically enumerated in the Constitution. Everyone agrees with that except when they want the federal government to be the enforcer on the specific topic of interest to them.

I spent quite a lot of time trying to determine if the NC502MP (8-ohm power claimed to be "time-limited because of thermal properties" 350 wpc) was actually more powerful than my B&K Reference 125.2 amps (125 wpc into 8 ohms claimed). Would an FTC number have simplified that comparison? I don't think so, because the rule is so unrelated to my actual use case. There is no question that the NC502MP can produce significantly higher voltages without clipping caused by insufficient current to fill out the waveform at frequencies humans (especially this human) can hear, and least for the periods needed to demonstrate that and for periods relevant to playing music, but it took a lot of graph study to be sure . Thus, it will play music noticeably louder, and do so indefinitely, with lower distortion--not that the distortion of the B&K was ever a problem--because the peaks in music (even brickwalled music) are not indefinitely long. But suppose it can't produce 20 KHz (or 20 Hz) sine waves above 100 wpc for five minutes without shutting down, while the B&K can. And in response to that, they downrate the advertised power of the NC502MP to, say, the 100 watts they currently rate it at for continuous operation. And supposing the MOSFETs in the B&K can produce 125W at 20K (or 20) for five minutes, but has only 1.8 dB of headroom, so that they can't fill out the same tall waveforms for shorter periods. By that one measure, the B&K would be rated as more powerful than the 502, but--and here's the point Amir is been trying to make throughout--it would not play music louder and thus would not actually provide more power of the type that people actually want. The 502 can fill out peaks up to a 350 (ish) wpc envelope for a useful length of time, while the B&K can't do that higher than 185 wpc for any length of time. The only reason people care about power output is the ability to play real content louder, so in this example the FTC number would undermine an appropriate market choice, not enhance it.

Back in 1974, the enthusiast market simply lacked the understanding that playing a sine wave for five minutes is a different dimension than the ability to fill out waveforms that are far shorter but still relevant to actual use cases. And that ambiguity made it possible for manufacturers to BS their customers, because nobody outside of (a few) magazines--which covered a miniscule sample of the marketplace--really tested stuff and even they didn't test this. Also, the amps most people could afford weren't really powerful enough for their rock-music-college-dorm-party use cases. So, the FTC stepped in with an arbitrary measure just to nail something down, but even then it I would bet a medium-sized Chinese feast that it was driven by U.S. manufacturers trying to protect their design conventions as the industry was transitioning from vacuum tubes to solid state, but once it was there everyone designed to it (rather than to the use cases of interest to users). Now that most amps are already loud enough for most consumers, I just don't understand why the FTC has a compelling interest to regulate the market, particularly using a dimension only approximately related to the one actually required by consumer use cases.

Rick "yes, the 502MP makes music noticeably louder than the B&K" Denney
 
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I won't argue cause I haven't look deep at Hypex and Purifi,but the icepowers I did clipping indicator only needs a led (with its appropriate resistor of course so to bright humanely ,not like having your own sun home like some I see around)

Can't be that hard for a company to do to others though.
I remember that about the IcePower I was looking at, it was actually one of the reasons I focused in on it. Ease of implementation.
 
I remember that about the IcePower I was looking at, it was actually one of the reasons I focused in on it. Ease of implementation.
Best thing about Ices is not the gazzilion of indicators.
Best thing is their monitor analog outputs where you can directly connect to one of those panel voltmeters (or VUs... ) without any further circuit.
They have a voltage and a current meter per channel and it's fun (apart from informative) to watch them at real time.

(problem is that I still haven't found some that I like,I think I'll settle with old industrial ones,it needs the -12 -0- 12 variation)
 
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