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PHEV batteries burning!

Juhazi

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#1
https://insideevs.com/news/449322/samsung-sdi-root-ford-bmw-phev-recalls/
Production problems at the Korean supplier could have led to the issues.
On August 11, Ford announced the Kuga PHEV had to be recalled due to a fire risk. Owners were told not to charge them on power outlets. On October 13, BMW also said it had to repair 26,700 plug-in hybrids worldwide due to the cells' issues. It also recommended affected customers not to charge them with cables. These two events would be connected, according to the German newspaper Handelsblatt: Samsung SDI is the common supplier.
We had already said that BMW bought its batteries from CATL and Samsung SDI. Now, Handelsblatt cites “industry circles” as the source of information about Ford’s supplier as well. In other words, both companies could be facing the same issue, with the same supplier, like the Takata recall on a much smaller scale.




For more info, google bmw battery recall

I'm one of the affected, bought a BMW X3 hybrid in the spring. No official report of this so far, just these rumours in the web...

bmw new hybrid.jpg
 

Neutron

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#2
Samsung again? Years ago their smartphones got fire risk.

TBH I think my next car will be EREV (or REEV).
 
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vert

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#3
I was just looking at some hybrid models recently: Fords, Mitsubishis, BMWs. Some looked interesting. I guess I'll check back in 10 years.
 

boXem | audio

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#4
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tesla+burning&atb=v1-1&ia=web

In addition to not aging very well, not being recyclable, making use of rare materials (with all the geopolitical implications), being extremely dangerous (600 to 800V DC...), these batteries are catching fire for whatever reason. But I have been told this is where the future is.
 

Neutron

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#5
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tesla+burning&atb=v1-1&ia=web

In addition to not aging very well, not being recyclable, making use of rare materials (with all the geopolitical implications), being extremely dangerous (600 to 800V DC...), these batteries are catching fire for whatever reason. But I have been told this is where the future is.
ICE cars can be on fire too. I enjoy watching gas station fire accidents on youtube... I think the issue of batteries on fire is caused by multiple reasons, but mostly from inmature design rather than flawed manufacturing (however, Samsung is notorious for battery safety concerns due to manufacturing problem). I think this will get resolved pretty quickly.
 

boXem | audio

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#6
ICE cars can be on fire too. I enjoy watching gas station fire accidents on youtube... I think the issue of batteries on fire is caused by multiple reasons, but mostly from inmature design rather than flawed manufacturing (however, Samsung is notorious for battery safety concerns due to manufacturing problem). I think this will get resolved pretty quickly.
ICE cars set on fire due to electrical problems most of the time. And these gas station fires seem to be a US thing, wondering why.
Lithium-ion batteries are intrinsically not stable. And their fire can not be extinguished.
During my previous working life, we started to have these in our facilities about 10 years ago. We were used to work with gasoline but these were requiring different safety measures. Basically, with gasoline a good ventilation + fire extinguisher was ok, with the batteries, the main requirement was to be in very close proximity from a door to the outside of the building. Once fire is started, the only ting you can do is to look the battery burn. So it better be outside.
 

Neutron

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#7
Lithium-ion batteries are intrinsically not stable. And their fire can not be extinguished.
Yes and no. Solid state lithium batteries have been research focus for years. Hitachi has already made fruitful achievement. The word is Hitachi can provide sample this year, and ramp up production for EVs in 2025. https://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/month/2015/11/151112.html

This is a market outlook: https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/solid-state-battery-market
 

Mashcky

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#8
In addition to not aging very well,
They are pretty good already with warranted 100k - 150k miles or eight years and are only getting better and better with expected life increasing to 1M miles.
not being recyclable,
Nope. Lithium ion batteries are already being reused by ev manufacturers for other applications after the car is done with them. Due to the cost of the battery materials, manufacturers then prefer to recover the materials after second use.
making use of rare materials (with all the geopolitical implications), being extremely dangerous (600 to 800V DC...),
Definitely the worst parts, I agree.
these batteries are catching fire for whatever reason. But I have been told this is where the future is.
Scary but no worse than ICE risk, maybe even better, "the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in [lithium-ion] battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels." NHTSA study, xvii. We get into more crashes in the USA which means more more risk for both driving technologies.
 

boXem | audio

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#9
They are pretty good already with warranted 100k - 150k miles or eight years and are only getting better and better with expected life increasing to 1M miles.

Nope. Lithium ion batteries are already being reused by ev manufacturers for other applications after the car is done with them. Due to the cost of the battery materials, manufacturers then prefer to recover the materials after second use.

Definitely the worst parts, I agree.

Scary but no worse than ICE risk, maybe even better, "the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in [lithium-ion] battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels." NHTSA study, xvii. We get into more crashes in the USA which means more more risk for both driving technologies.
It's good to be optimistic :)
Coming from the automotive industry and having aquintances in environment protection, I am not.
 

Bamboszek

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#10
I worked for one of Samsung competitors in EV batteries business and I can agree with @Mashcky
Usage of cobalt was lately greatly reduced. Even completely cobalt-less cathodes are developed.
While I can agree on that Li-Poly batteries are almost impossible to extinguish (best thing you can do is throw everything to salt water and let it boil), it is pretty hard to ignite them unless pouch is perforated. Battery packs are very well protected. From electrical side - all kind of fuses, relays, over/under temperature, voltage, current monitoring and mechanically in sturdy modules, usually placed low in car, at safest crash space.
 
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Juhazi

Juhazi

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Thread Starter #11
Problems with car LiIon batteries have not been with the basic electrodes/electrolyte, but mass production problems - eg. welding debris wandering to wrong places and causing shorts, or cables getting loose and hot.

The currents are enormous in cars 100 -300kW and almost same when regenerating or supercharging.
 

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