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Perlisten Owners' Lounge - Discuss all things Perlisten.

CleanSound

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Hey All - I want to create a thread for Perlisten owners. The purpose is to discuss all things related to Perlisten speakers, including but not limited to:
  • Optimal placement
  • Proper amplification
  • Other equipment/brands that works well with Perlisten
  • New products from Perlisten
  • Or for those who are interested in Perlisten speakers, you can come here to ask any questions you may have.
Please stay on topic.
 
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CleanSound

CleanSound

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I'll kick it off. I have the S7t, what I noticed is that if I don't toe them in, the bass is very sloppy/muddy and boomy. Once I toe them in, it's a world of a difference, that's when I get the Perlisten experience. I need to toe them in where the tweeters hits my shoulder when in listening position to get that optimal sound.

This issue occurs in two very different rooms, which leaves me thinking it's less likely room mode.
  1. What do you think is the cause of it?
  2. Is there any negative effect on sound staging (or others) for the speakers to be toe in to the point I have it?
  3. Anyone knows what Perlisten's recommendations are for speaker placement?
 

Golfx

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I had the S7C for two years. I never noticed this phenomena. I aways crossed mine to subs though. I just upgraded to the Limited Edition and these to me are more spacious and room filling than my SEs.
 

Golfx

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Admiringly jealous. Congrats. How are they?
Very open and spacious. I used to listen to music using auromatic to have a tall wall of sound. Now just the LEs have a better presentation taller and just disappear. I was asked on AVS perlisten stream why the difference. I asked my dealer Matt Poes and he asked Dan at Perlisten below was his answer:
“Hey Matt
I’d say it’s a combination of things (in no particular order)
1) pair matching is ridiculously tight. SE is no slouch but LE is best I’ve ever achieved
2) polar maybe better ever so slightly-we did tweak this quite a bit during listening eval. A lot of subtle things underneath effecting how we use the DPC.
3) drivers ability to resolve details (to me this was a bigger improvement then any simulation indicated) truly a case of listen and verify. Those mid/woofers really are next level
4) bass extension- this always frees up the mid/highs when implemented well
5) losses in the xover are even less than SE version. Exact impact I’m not sure because we didn’t specifically isolate this but it is my hunch.

Hope this helps. “

I’m happy.

thanks for the kind words
 
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CleanSound

CleanSound

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Very open and spacious. I used to listen to music using auromatic to have a tall wall of sound. Now just the LEs have a better presentation taller and just disappear. I was asked on AVS perlisten stream why the difference. I asked my dealer Matt Poes and he asked Dan at Perlisten below was his answer:
“Hey Matt
I’d say it’s a combination of things (in no particular order)
1) pair matching is ridiculously tight. SE is no slouch but LE is best I’ve ever achieved
2) polar maybe better ever so slightly-we did tweak this quite a bit during listening eval. A lot of subtle things underneath effecting how we use the DPC.
3) drivers ability to resolve details (to me this was a bigger improvement then any simulation indicated) truly a case of listen and verify. Those mid/woofers really are next level
4) bass extension- this always frees up the mid/highs when implemented well
5) losses in the xover are even less than SE version. Exact impact I’m not sure because we didn’t specifically isolate this but it is my hunch.

Hope this helps. “

I’m happy.

thanks for the kind words
The LE are pair matched to .5 dB. That is ridiculous. I wonder what the SE is matched to. The Ascend Acoustic, according to their website are pair matched to 1dB, so I would hope the SE are pair matched to 1dB as well.
 

Golfx

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The LE are pair matched to .5 dB. That is ridiculous. I wonder what the SE is matched to. The Ascend Acoustic, according to their website are pair matched to 1dB, so I would hope the SE are pair matched to 1dB as well.
I was sent Kilppel data showing the close match of the LEs. Regarding the SEs, Perlisten has everything to gain from trying to honest and the best they can. I cannot say I was ever disappointed in my SEs’ sound. My move to the LEs had nothing to do with the sound of my SEs. I suppose my motive was I could afford them and knew they would likely be an improvement—however slight.
 
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CleanSound

CleanSound

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I was sent Kilppel data showing the close match of the LEs. Regarding the SEs, Perlisten has everything to gain from trying to honest and the best they can. I cannot say I was ever disappointed in my SEs’ sound. My move to the LEs had nothing to do with the sound of my SEs. I suppose my motive was I could afford them and knew they would likely be an improvement—however slight.
Watching a Audioholics video with Roemer, it sounded like pair matching for LE was hard and the best he's ever done, which leads me to think pair matching for SE is also an accomplishment of it's own.

I am happy with the SE, the next speaker will be DSP controlled and it looks like Perlisten may be working on one in the future.
 

MAB

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I'll kick it off. I have the S7t, what I noticed is that if I don't toe them in, the bass is very sloppy/muddy and boomy. Once I toe them in, it's a world of a difference, that's when I get the Perlisten experience. I need to toe them in where the tweeters hits my shoulder when in listening position to get that optimal sound.

This issue occurs in two very different rooms, which leaves me thinking it's less likely room mode.
  1. What do you think is the cause of it?
  2. Is there any negative effect on sound staging (or others) for the speakers to be toe in to the point I have it?
  3. Anyone knows what Perlisten's recommendations are for speaker placement?
Nice speakers.
And they publish data. So double-nice.
1706459700027.png

For sure the frequency response at the listening position will change due to the off-axis behavior. And the resulting ratio of direct and reflected sound. But if you just angle the speakers and don't move them, the bass won't change very much at all. Bass is omnidirectional, higher frequencies are directional.

For example, here is a speaker with fairly flat anechoic response in a bare room with nothing but concrete walls. The measurements are dominated by the response of the room which has large modes in this setup at 40 and 100Hz. The speaker is measured at the main listening position with both no toe-in, and toe-in of 10 degrees.
1706464495561.png

There is 1-2dB of treble attenuation, which is predicted from this speaker's spinorama data.:cool: But the bass didn't change one bit.

To further illustrate, I rotated the speaker through 180 degrees being careful to not change the position relative to the wall. This is an obviously absurd experiment with the speaker pointed in all sorts of wrong directions, but I want to illustrate what actually affects bass, and what does not.
1706465018594.png

The 40Hz node and the response below 80Hz doesn't change! The 100Hz node does, change which doesn't surprise me since the speaker is close to the back wall in this measurement and even a small positional change relative to the wall will have an effect. SPL below 30Hz also changes just a bit. Next I will show this is all due to my inability to rotate the speaker precisely on it's acoustic axis!

Here are measurements of the same speaker in the same area of my room from the same MLP. but now facing out (no toe-in) at various distances from the center of the speaker to the back wall:
1706467165014.png

Here they are separated for clarity:
1706467250418.png

The 12" measurement, the speaker's port is about 7" from the back wall. Moving the speaker like this does modulate the 100Hz null and the higher order nulls, which are caused by comb filtering as discussed here:
1706466689273.png


This explains the change in the 100Hz.

How about the stuff below 30Hz? Some of that is the heavy equipment cleaning up the downed trees in our neighborhood affecting the measurement, I can see the subsonic energy in RTA. Also the room mode is sensitive to left-right positioning, and rotating the speaker isn't a perfect rotation since the speaker is finite size.

In summary, toeing in your Perlisten isn't changing the bass, unless you also moved it closer or further from the walls. Toe-in does affect the treble, which can/will alter your perception of the bass, but this is typically subtle and not really a likely explanation for why a speaker such as a S7t produces "very sloppy bass" with certain toe-in angles. If you changed the position of the speaker relative to the side or back walls, then that will affect the bass. However, the most likely explanation is the most common one in audio, you expected a change and you heard one because of expectation bias.
 
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CleanSound

CleanSound

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Nice speakers.
And they publish data. So double-nice.
View attachment 345728
For sure the frequency response at the listening position will change due to the off-axis behavior. And the resulting ratio of direct and reflected sound. But if you just angle the speakers and don't move them, the bass won't change very much at all. Bass is omnidirectional, higher frequencies are directional.

For example, here is a speaker with fairly flat anechoic response in a bare room with nothing but concrete walls. The measurements are dominated by the response of the room which has large modes in this setup at 40 and 100Hz. The speaker is measured at the main listening position with both no toe-in, and toe-in of 10 degrees.
View attachment 345752
There is 1-2dB of treble attenuation, which is predicted from this speaker's spinorama data.:cool: But the bass didn't change one bit.

To further illustrate, I rotated the speaker through 180 degrees being careful to not change the position relative to the wall. This is an obviously absurd experiment with the speaker pointed in all sorts of wrong directions, but I want to illustrate what actually affects bass, and what does not.
View attachment 345755
The 40Hz node and the response below 80Hz doesn't change! The 100Hz node does, change which doesn't surprise me since the speaker is close to the back wall in this measurement and even a small positional change relative to the wall will have an effect. SPL below 30Hz also changes just a bit. Next I will show this is all due to my inability to rotate the speaker precisely on it's acoustic axis!

Here are measurements of the same speaker in the same area of my room from the same MLP. but now facing out (no toe-in) at various distances from the center of the speaker to the back wall:
View attachment 345761
Here they are separated for clarity:
View attachment 345762
The 12" measurement, the speaker's port is about 7" from the back wall. Moving the speaker like this does modulate the 100Hz null and the higher order nulls, which are caused by comb filtering as discussed here:
View attachment 345759

This explains the change in the 100Hz.

How about the stuff below 30Hz? Some of that is the heavy equipment cleaning up the downed trees in our neighborhood affecting the measurement, I can see the subsonic energy in RTA. Also the room mode is sensitive to left-right positioning, and rotating the speaker isn't a perfect rotation since the speaker is finite size.

In summary, toeing in your Perlisten isn't changing the bass, unless you also moved it closer or further from the walls. Toe-in does affect the treble, which can/will alter your perception of the bass, but this is typically subtle and not really a likely explanation for why a speaker such as a S7t produces "very sloppy bass" with certain toe-in angles. If you changed the position of the speaker relative to the side or back walls, then that will affect the bass. However, the most likely explanation is the most common one in audio, you expected a change and you heard one because of expectation bias.
Superb explanation and with data to back it. I will play around with the positioning and put some mineral wool acoustic panels at different walls and see if that makes a difference.
 
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CleanSound

CleanSound

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Nice speakers.
And they publish data. So double-nice.
View attachment 345728
For sure the frequency response at the listening position will change due to the off-axis behavior. And the resulting ratio of direct and reflected sound. But if you just angle the speakers and don't move them, the bass won't change very much at all. Bass is omnidirectional, higher frequencies are directional.

For example, here is a speaker with fairly flat anechoic response in a bare room with nothing but concrete walls. The measurements are dominated by the response of the room which has large modes in this setup at 40 and 100Hz. The speaker is measured at the main listening position with both no toe-in, and toe-in of 10 degrees.
View attachment 345752
There is 1-2dB of treble attenuation, which is predicted from this speaker's spinorama data.:cool: But the bass didn't change one bit.

To further illustrate, I rotated the speaker through 180 degrees being careful to not change the position relative to the wall. This is an obviously absurd experiment with the speaker pointed in all sorts of wrong directions, but I want to illustrate what actually affects bass, and what does not.
View attachment 345755
The 40Hz node and the response below 80Hz doesn't change! The 100Hz node does, change which doesn't surprise me since the speaker is close to the back wall in this measurement and even a small positional change relative to the wall will have an effect. SPL below 30Hz also changes just a bit. Next I will show this is all due to my inability to rotate the speaker precisely on it's acoustic axis!

Here are measurements of the same speaker in the same area of my room from the same MLP. but now facing out (no toe-in) at various distances from the center of the speaker to the back wall:
View attachment 345761
Here they are separated for clarity:
View attachment 345762
The 12" measurement, the speaker's port is about 7" from the back wall. Moving the speaker like this does modulate the 100Hz null and the higher order nulls, which are caused by comb filtering as discussed here:
View attachment 345759

This explains the change in the 100Hz.

How about the stuff below 30Hz? Some of that is the heavy equipment cleaning up the downed trees in our neighborhood affecting the measurement, I can see the subsonic energy in RTA. Also the room mode is sensitive to left-right positioning, and rotating the speaker isn't a perfect rotation since the speaker is finite size.

In summary, toeing in your Perlisten isn't changing the bass, unless you also moved it closer or further from the walls. Toe-in does affect the treble, which can/will alter your perception of the bass, but this is typically subtle and not really a likely explanation for why a speaker such as a S7t produces "very sloppy bass" with certain toe-in angles. If you changed the position of the speaker relative to the side or back walls, then that will affect the bass. However, the most likely explanation is the most common one in audio, you expected a change and you heard one because of expectation bias.
What is the best way to treat bass in the front wall (the wall behind the back of the speaker)?
 

Golfx

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Anthony Grimani a acoustics expert has a audioholics youtube video you can watch.
very informantive. A simple answer might be 4-6” of bass trap foam behind your speakers. You could also try moving the speakers closer (like rt next to) the wall or further into the room.
 

MAB

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What is the best way to treat bass in the front wall (the wall behind the back of the speaker)?
I assume you mean SBIR. That will mostly be modulated by distance to back wall. Room mode is also a function of placement/setup. There isn't really a realistic back-wall treatment for SBIR, see that Monitor Placement link I sent.

You can treat for modes. But constructions that can damp and tame low frequency resonance are large. Acoustic panels will do more for upper frequencies, which will affect your perception of bass but not change the bass. I typically use placement to have the speaker in the right placement relative to room boundaries, and I often use placement of subs to energize the room more uniformly.
 

Stinga

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Well hello from New Zealand everyone, these girls got hooked up this afternoon, WAY different to my old Sonus Faber Electa Amator ll's, shadyj if your in the hood and likewise Professor Peng, much thanks for your guidance...
Al
 

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CleanSound

CleanSound

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Any one has the D15s?
Perlisten subs are very luxurious, I haven't came across much third party measurements for them but I can't imagine it being bad. But I do think cost of entry is very high. I pair my Perlisten with the much more affordable SVS.
 

Golfx

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CleanSound

CleanSound

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I asked Perlisten to what tolerance are the S7t SE pair matched to. Remind you the S7t LE are pair matched to .5dB.

I was told by Perlisten that the S7t are pair matched to 1.5dB. I was a bit disappointed if I am honest, Ascend Acoustic pair match their Sierra line to 1dB, I expected the S7t SE to also be pair matched to 1dB.

That explains why the imaging of my S7t when compared to my Neumann KH 120 (pair matched to .5 dB) is a big difference.

I wonder what most speakers that do pair matching, to what tolerance they are typically pair matched to.
 

blueone

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I asked Perlisten to what tolerance are the S7t SE pair matched to. Remind you the S7t LE are pair matched to .5dB.

I was told by Perlisten that the S7t are pair matched to 1.5dB. I was a bit disappointed if I am honest, Ascend Acoustic pair match their Sierra line to 1dB, I expected the S7t SE to also be pair matched to 1dB.

That explains why the imaging of my S7t when compared to my Neumann KH 120 (pair matched to .5 dB) is a big difference.

I wonder what most speakers that do pair matching, to what tolerance they are typically pair matched to.
From the Revel Salon2 owners' manual:

Each Salon2/Studio2 is hand-tuned during manufacturing to match the production reference standard within a fraction of a decibel, ensuring
incomparable loudspeaker-to-loudspeaker consistency.
 
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